Passerine (Ebro Delta, Spain) (1 Viewer)

SLopezM · Jul 26, 2018

I saw this bird in the Ebro Delta (Spain), during the first week of July. It's a coastal area with several ponds and many other water landscapes.

There are three pictures. The first two belong to the same bird. The last one is a different bird, although it might be the same species.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1waEKYeD7RtMOCd8EnmRZK3OQCu8w4M1b

Richard Prior · Jul 26, 2018

All three feature Reed Warbler IMO.

Nutcracker · Jul 26, 2018

Richard Prior said:
All three feature Reed Warbler IMO.

But which reed warbler?

Remember IOC have split Eurasian Reed Warbler Acrocephalus scirpaceus and African Reed Warbler Acrocephalus baeticatus, with Iberian breeders included in the latter (but the former also present on passage . . .) :t:

I'd not have a clue how to distinguish them, does it need a DNA sample?

Andy Adcock · Jul 26, 2018

Nutcracker said:
But which reed warbler?

Remember IOC have split Eurasian Reed Warbler Acrocephalus scirpaceus and African Reed Warbler Acrocephalus baeticatus, with Iberian breeders included in the latter (but the former also present on passage . . .) :t:

I'd not have a clue how to distinguish them, does it need a DNA sample?

According to Reed and Bush Warblers,

'Eurasian cannot be safely identified using plumage features alone. It's much longer primary projection (c70% of the tertial length) provides the only, reliable means of distinguishing them so separation relies upon getting a good view of the wing point.'

Seems a bit contradictory, tells you they can't safely be done then tells you how they can?

African doesn't occur in the Ebro Delta, information above relates to nominate Eurasion which winter in W Africa.

A

Nutcracker · Jul 26, 2018

andyadcock said:
According to Reed and Bush Warblers,

'Eurasian cannot be safely identified using plumage features alone. It's much longer primary projection (c70% of the tertial length) provides the only, reliable means of distinguishing them so separation relies upon getting a good view of the wing point.'

Seems a bit contradictory, tells you they can't safely be done then tells you how they can?

African doesn't occur in the Ebro Delta, information above relates to nominate Eurasion which winter in W Africa.

A

It does now, based on data in Olsson et al 2016 (per IOC), subsequent to Reed and Bush Warblers (2010) :t:

A. b. ambiguus(Brehm, AE, 1857)Iberian Pen. and nw AfricaSSPGenetically and phenotypically distinct from [FONT=Calibri,Arial]A. s. scirpaceus[/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Arial] to which it has been traditionally been synonymized. Tentatively included in [/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Arial]A. baeticatus[/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Arial]. Olsson et al, 2016.[/FONT]

Richard Prior · Jul 26, 2018

So there you are Sergio, it's either Eurasian or African Reed Warbler, first week of July would most likely relate to a breeding bird I would imagine, which on reading the above contributions favours African.
Although an early failed breeding Eurasian cannot be ruled out of course.

How I yearn for the days when Marsh Tit and Willow Tit were thought to be one species, it was all fields around here then........

Andy Adcock · Jul 26, 2018

I'm no scientist and traditionally find a lot of this stuff hard to understand so, the IOC list states the following for ambiguuusthat supposedly occurs in Spain.....

'Genetically and phenotypically distinct from A. s. scirpaceus to which it has been traditionally been (sic) synonymized. Tentatively included in A. baeticatus. Olsson et al, 2016.'

Rather than African Reed Warbler, it seems to me that they migh not know what it is, Iberian Reed Warbler?

A

Simon Wates · Jul 26, 2018

The breeding Reed Warblers we have down here in southern Portugal should also be of the Iberian/African type - I have not yet had a good enough look at wing length in the field but its certainly not an obvious feature. I'd be a lot happier to treat them as a species if there were differences in song, which seem very similar/identical to scirpaceus to me - though I haven't heard these on breeding grounds for many years, just some singing migrants. Has any analysis been done comparing songs?

SLopezM · Jul 27, 2018

Thank you to all of you. Very interesting thread with many information I didn't know.

Barred Wobbler · Jul 27, 2018

andyadcock said:
According to Reed and Bush Warblers,

'Eurasian cannot be safely identified using plumage features alone. It's much longer primary projection (c70% of the tertial length) provides the only, reliable means of distinguishing them so separation relies upon getting a good view of the wing point.'

Seems a bit contradictory, tells you they can't safely be done then tells you how they can?

African doesn't occur in the Ebro Delta, information above relates to nominate Eurasion which winter in W Africa.

A

Does that make this one an African?

Photo taken at Candasnos, Aragon in May 2011.

Passerine (Ebro Delta, Spain) (1 Viewer)

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