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David Attenborough Speaks out (1 Viewer)

I couldn't agree more with Sir David. Tough to find a solution, though.
I have no children, for this very reason of overpopulation. Numbers in the Netherlands have risen to 16.5 million inhabitants. It's getting a bit crowded here. Belgium, on the other hand, has still only 10 million inhabitants, Denmark even less.
The problem here in the Netherlands is that no-one speaks out in favour of a population decrease, except a small club called " the 10 million club ". It's been several years I last heard of them.
The problem of overpopulation is most obvious when people begin to speak of the Netherlands in comparison with for instance New York; they believe we are a city.
They forget there's a bit more outside New York. We don't have that, or we must call it Germany. A small country is not necessarily comparable with a metropolis. Yet the Netherlands experience a growing rate of urbanisation.

Regards,

Ronald
 
Isn't educating women the best form of birth control yet found (longterm)?

Not just women...

Both accounts between men and woman count here. Responsibility between both genders count.

In the UK alone there are many issues related to the benefits system with the population boom that I will not go into. I am sure you get the gist of what I am saying here.

Call me an old fuddy duddy, but years ago I was told at school, that your career came first, then love and marriage next. Having children came last, and was seen as very important and a lot of thought placed into having families at all.

To me, these days having kids is the first priority and everything else is after that. So society is booming for all the wrong reasons. Life is going backwards instead of forwards now

Not a good omen at all. It does nothing for our precious planet at all. :storm:
 
We need more people like Sir D to speak out, just like Parky did on another matter recently. One problem is that we've become too good at curing and preventing diseases that would naturally have thinned the population previously. Plague and pestilence cut numbers drastically at times, but then people could have large families to make up the numbers again. If we want long, healthy lives, we have to cut the number of people to share the planet, but as you say, Kathy, some areas of our benefit system encourage procreation!
 
I totally agree. I don't have children because I don't want to lose my freedom and I don't see the need for me to have them anyway, and even as a child myself, I felt that the world was overpopulated with the horrendous effect this has had on other species.
So much is said about pollution, climate change, overuse of resources etc but the sheer numbers of people is a major reason behind it and until conservationists and politicians face up to this then the situation won't improve.

As for the UK, our benefits system is seriously screwed up, it rewards the feckless and these are the ones churning out sprogs to get benefits.

No, we don't want to revert to the days when smallpox was common and even a cold could carry you off, and a human 'cull' is such a revolting idea and completely non-negotiable that cutting the amount of births is the answer. How you re-educate people to this fact is a big challenge for the first half of this century, because having children is seen as a 'right'.
 
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Couldn't agree more with Sir David :t: In fact, like VectisBirder, I've been worried about the sheer numbers of humans on the planet since I was about 8- 9 years old!!! I was mocked at school for this belief too!

I'm now 41 years old and known since I was 10 years old that I didn't want children. Got nothing against them and I loved taking my niece out for the day when she was a wee bairn (and teaching her about nature ;)) but I never once felt broody and (don't laugh!) the thought of childbirth scares the bejesus out of me!!!:eek!: I've always said that if I'd wanted kids the caesarian (under full anaesthetic!!!) would be booked and paid for BEFORE the conception! ;)
Perhaps I just value my freedom to do my own thing too much ;) TBH it's hard enough being a birder married to a non-birder and squeezing in a few precious hours every week!!! If I'd had children I honestly believe I would feel trapped!
Whenever I went on first dates with guys in the past I would tell them right from Day One that I didn't want kids as I didn't want to mess them about and get too emotionally involved as quite a few thought they could change my mind.
My husband Neil luckily felt the same way (long story involving the death of a 5 year old step-brother) and his wedding present to me was a vasectomy two days after we got back from our honeymoon :king:

Sadly I believe the situation will not get any better until somebody has the guts to stand up and overhaul both the benefits system AND the council housing list! Once council housing was for married couples only but now you have absolutely no chance whatsoever in getting even a tiny flat unless you are a single girl with a baby!
Whatever happened to morals and getting married BEFORE having children? If I had been stupid enough to get myself pregnant it would have brought shame upon our family and I dread to think what my dad would have said but now it's positively celebrated because it's a way to avoid working and the quickest way to those precious council house keys!!! :storm: I work in a post office so see the single girls coming in and getting almost the same amount of cash each week that I have to work six days for and then they will go down to the front of the shop and buy their 40 ciggies and umpteen scratch-cards :C

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :C I can feel my blood pressure going up just thinking about it!!!!!
 
I thought this thread was about overpopulation. Morals are quite a different thing and the world's overpopulation isn't caused by council house policy.


For what it's worth, current birth rates in the UK are 1.9 children per woman.
 
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Too much talk about "rights". The only right shoud be the right to get the resources to support your life and that of your family before getting on with breeding. And one inappropriate shot and goodbye gonads instead of hello top of housing ladder would be grand as well.

John
 
Hi It seems we are all concentrating on our own backyard, does anyone really believe the Morals of the working class in the Uk or its benefit system are the cause of world over population How can these issues effect Africa,China and South America, all overpopulated, perhaps we should blame the success story of the human race, as breeders and survivors, as predators and settlers. It is our very ability to be at the top of the food chain that creates all these conditions and like all succesful life forms we multiply and destroy the very environment we seek to live in.
Who knows perhaps "Climate Change" is natures answer to the problem, as I remember from Biology lessons, overpopulation is an answer to the threat of extinction. Anyone up to calculate how big a population is needed to leave enough survivors for the human race to to still be around in 200 years time?

PeterK
 
Si David's views were recently legitimized in a recent Horizon documentary, during which he was a contributor. Surely this is the real problem facing the planets biodiversity, climate and man. The fact that we are currently in an overpulation overshoot and that no amount of recycling, wind farms or increased random taxation is going to make a single jot of difference, especially after the failure of Copenhagen.

I've been watching the progressive reduction in diversity of woods and farmland in Hertfordshire, England for 35 years - it's not just the rainforest, coral reefs, fish stocks or Polar Bears.

Sorry to open an old thread here but it is a big subject for us wildlife supporters.
 
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How many people?

Without the variety of environments, and the animals, birds, plants and weather patterns that go with them, human life would be much poorer. So the goal is a human population that is decently fed, clothed and housed, and in decent health, with a still very rich natural environment to enjoy and explore.

I agree with the viewpoint that the world has too many people at the moment for this vision to be realised, and therefore I agree broadly with Attenborough.

I live in Japan, and therefore don't have British TV. A couple of years ago, I bought the Planet Earth and the Life of Mammals / of Birds / in the Undergrowth / in Cold Blood series on DVDs and watched them over the space of a few days.

At first I was stunned by the beauty of the things shown, and by the work, patience and devotion that went into getting them on film.

But after a few hours, I became disturbed by the fact that the world depicted was a world devoid of any human but David Attenborough. In the Attenborough TV programs I watched in black and white as a child, there were lots of locals - trackers, porters and simply people living in the places visited - but these have now gone.

And although the series makes an attempt to be an overview of mammals or birds or the varied environments of the world, actually it is a collection of very difficult to get shots that only the latest technology has made possible, and the theme is a thin excuse to string these shots together. I had read the phrase 'nature pornography' in the newspapers, but here I had a feeling of what the phrase meant. Getting the camera inside the animals' nest and being able to see what the animal got up to was where the kick came from. And Attenborough salivated in front of his little Sony infra-red screen (do you remember the sequence in the bat cave?).

In 100 years, all of us alive now, including those born while I have been typing this, will be dead (bar a handful). We don't have to fill the world up with as many people as there are now. For the first time ever, too many people poses a threat to the continued existence of the human race; too much knowledge and ability to control the planet is the problem, rather than too little.

My father, who married late due to lack of resources, would have been 100 in December last year, so I have been thinking of things like this recently.

I confess that I am not optimistic. Most of us don't seem to follow the logic of the principles we say we are committed to. I am not religious, but I wonder why those people who believe a God created a world and all the species in it 6,000 years ago or so do not feel an obligation to preserve every last form of life that this God created, rather than a freedom to kill it all as they seem to.

A week ago, I was on a mountain in Uganda, looking at gorillas. I had flown there from Japan with my wife. There we had a conversation with a couple from New Mexico: we all hoped that us visiting and paying a lot ($500 each for a one time gorilla view, plus hotels, porters and so on) would increase the chances that the gorillas would be there in 50 years, rather than decrease them, but none of us was confident that this was the case.
 
Without the variety of environments, and the animals, birds, plants and weather patterns that go with them, human life would be much poorer. So the goal is a human population that is decently fed, clothed and housed, and in decent health, with a still very rich natural environment to enjoy and explore.

I agree with the viewpoint that the world has too many people at the moment for this vision to be realised, and therefore I agree broadly with Attenborough.

I live in Japan, and therefore don't have British TV. A couple of years ago, I bought the Planet Earth and the Life of Mammals / of Birds / in the Undergrowth / in Cold Blood series on DVDs and watched them over the space of a few days.

At first I was stunned by the beauty of the things shown, and by the work, patience and devotion that went into getting them on film.

But after a few hours, I became disturbed by the fact that the world depicted was a world devoid of any human but David Attenborough. In the Attenborough TV programs I watched in black and white as a child, there were lots of locals - trackers, porters and simply people living in the places visited - but these have now gone.

And although the series makes an attempt to be an overview of mammals or birds or the varied environments of the world, actually it is a collection of very difficult to get shots that only the latest technology has made possible, and the theme is a thin excuse to string these shots together. I had read the phrase 'nature pornography' in the newspapers, but here I had a feeling of what the phrase meant. Getting the camera inside the animals' nest and being able to see what the animal got up to was where the kick came from. And Attenborough salivated in front of his little Sony infra-red screen (do you remember the sequence in the bat cave?).

In 100 years, all of us alive now, including those born while I have been typing this, will be dead (bar a handful). We don't have to fill the world up with as many people as there are now. For the first time ever, too many people poses a threat to the continued existence of the human race; too much knowledge and ability to control the planet is the problem, rather than too little.

My father, who married late due to lack of resources, would have been 100 in December last year, so I have been thinking of things like this recently.

I confess that I am not optimistic. Most of us don't seem to follow the logic of the principles we say we are committed to. I am not religious, but I wonder why those people who believe a God created a world and all the species in it 6,000 years ago or so do not feel an obligation to preserve every last form of life that this God created, rather than a freedom to kill it all as they seem to.

A week ago, I was on a mountain in Uganda, looking at gorillas. I had flown there from Japan with my wife. There we had a conversation with a couple from New Mexico: we all hoped that us visiting and paying a lot ($500 each for a one time gorilla view, plus hotels, porters and so on) would increase the chances that the gorillas would be there in 50 years, rather than decrease them, but none of us was confident that this was the case.


Good post

There is another thread somewhere here about the natural world ( I think it was), about 2 months ago in which we had an hours window of life from a local's point of view around the Victoria Falls. It was so much better than the Attenborough series. It brought the viewer into the village. We saw his fellow villagers and we saw some of the wildlife but everything was seen in true perspective. And it drew tears when, at the end, we were told that the man who gave such a remarkable narrative had died.
 
do you not think it's nice to have one set of programmes that are devoid of human life compared pretty much everything else that is broadcast...

anyway, we digress... The UK fertility rate was 1.96 in 2008 (This it higher than it would be due to immigration from cultures with a typically higher fertility rate); for a human population to maintain it's numbers it needs a fertility rate of 2.1. Look to China and India, that's where the problems stem from.
 
Do you not think it's nice to have one set of programmes that are devoid of human life compared pretty much everything else that is broadcast...

Well, as I said: at the beginning, I was stunned, but after a few hours it got creepy. And it wasn't devoid of human life, it was full of Attenborough, and only Attenborough. It felt like the Lord God giving a tour of his creation.

And on a more ordinary note: don't you think it's not a good thing that 'nature' for British (and other countries') TV viewers is represented by only one elderly man? Shouldn't they be training up younger nature presenters, and also giving the viewers a variety of approaches? (Well, perhaps it's the Lord God thing again, not an ordinary note.)

Look to China and India, that's where the problems stem from.

You are being unfair on China which, after all, has had a one-child policy for thirty years. Although the population has not yet started to fall, this is because its people were on average very young when the policy started. Despite the many things about China that people lucky enough to live in wealthy countries may not like, this attempt to control total numbers as part of improving the life of the people deserves respect.

You are however right about India, in my opinion. I visited India for the first time last autumn, and it was a lot more primitive than I had expected with all the stuff in the newspapers about how it's an economic dynamo (and we didn't visit the really poor bits). At independence, India had a population of 400 million. Now it has 400 million who live on less than $1 a day, another 400 million who live on under $2 a day, and another 400 million or so on $2 and up. For every Indian who looks to us to have a minimally acceptable standard of life, there are ten or so who barely have enough food. I don't call this a success, even if they have elections, and even change government occasionally. The members of the Indian parliament are about as gruesome a collection of people as you could come accross.

Other places that come to mind:

Ethiopia has another famine now in the north, not as bad as the one in the 80s, but still requiring 'food aid'. Then the population of Ethiopia was in the 30 millions, now it is apparently around 80 million. So they obviously haven't spent the intervening years matching population to carrying capacity.

Bangladesh wouldn't have enough land for its current population of peasants even if it wasn't about to lose a lot to the sea. The prime minister of Bangladesh recently said that rich countries (i.e. Britain) should be prepared to accept 20 million climate refugees from there. In the same newspaper articles, the claim that the population of Bangladesh 'is expected to increase by 100 million by 2050' went uncommented upon.

Countries in Africa, such as Kenya, may have fairly low population densities, but the growth rate of population is almost in line with the growth rate of the economy as a whole, so the population increases at a constant rate of immiseration, while the land is damaged (permanently, quite possibly) by trying to carry too many people with low tech farming (which often seriously damages land, and moves on leaving it to recover, but destroys it in a more permanent way if there is nowhere to move on to).

The issues are enormously complex, but at some point these countries are going to have to take responsibility for their own situation (that's what 'independence' means, and they wanted it and have got it).

It is 'unfair' that certain groups (i.e. Europeans) got to move around the world when there was available land which could support people, while groups which got the technology to dramatically expand the population (medicine, advanced farming) later find there aren't empty places to move to which will support them.

And it's unfair that some of us get to inherit the results of these groups' luck, while others don't. After all, my personal contribution to the development of antibiotics or high-yield rice is no greater than that of any Bangladeshi peasant.

But it is simply logic that in any development or change, some people go first and others later, sometimes too late. Equally, it is simply logic that a finite space can eventually be filled. Pretending things are otherwise won't make them so.

The technology that allows this huge increase in population was not developed indigenously by the people who are using it to overfill the places they live. 'Traditional' family systems go with lack of medicines and other advanced technology. So one way to go would be to reject advanced technology. The other is to change traditional practices.

Of course we can't expect the illiterate peasants in these countries to understand this. But we might expect the elites to educate and organise their fellow citizens, which is what is happening in China. Unfortunately in most 'third world' countries the elite seems to be thieves whose main goal seems to be to line their own pockets and Swiss (and London) bank accounts.

I used to be more optimistic, and believe that elites would eventually see reason, and look to increase the individual wealth of their fellow citizens, rather than their numbers, but recently I have moved towards the Lovelock view that it will be sorted out by war, disease, and famine.

I have really liked Africa and most of the people I met there on the two short visits I have made. I liked India less (it seemed primitive, much more so than Africa, and not in a good sense), but I met (have met) plenty of decent Indians who have the welfare of the country as a whole at heart. I don't in any way consider their people inferior in natural talents. But on balance, it doesn't look like the decent people are winning, and that the natural talents will be channeled into improvement of these countries.

In Africa, Islam and various Christian cults are omnipresent, which doesn't seem to make it likely that they will take control of their population in a timely way. And primitive strains of Hinduism and Islam will lead to the same failure in India and the surrounding countries. The guides who took us around in India even as they patriotically extolled India's supposed economic progress, also regularly explained their plans to get out of the country themselves, or at least to get their children out.
 
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MacNara, thank you for a very informative post. It is true that many of us that contribute here are wildlife enthusiasts, but I it obvious that we care and indeed have a mutual love for our fellow mankind. The wildlife is often the colour and beauty of the places we choose to visit during precious holidays, but it is the hospitality and kindness of our hosts that enable it to happen at all. I'm so worried about this massive problem that I've joined Optimum Population Trust in the UK. We do seem to be heading for ecological disaster, yet it seems at times this a taboo subject. Thanks again for the information.
 
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