AOS NACC/SACC taxonomic committee governance and structures (no discussions on patronyms) (1 Viewer)

[THE_FERN]

Perhaps the "good" news is that in the fullness of time the initiative will switch to those countries where the birds actually are (aren't all Paraguay's birds in drawers in the Smithsonian?).

One day people (in the N) might even start questioning why their tax dollars go to maintaining large collections of specimens of species that don't even occur there.

 

[Paul Clapham]

Van told me as an aside when discussing a different issue that he had (I am paraphrasing I hope I don’t misquote him or misremember details) informed AOS that SACC would essentially be ending the affiliation with AOS.

So I take it AOS will eventually need to update their webpage to reflect that.

I kind of doubt there will be two SACCs.

What I am curious about is what all the WGAC changes and this AOS dust up on top of it means for SACC’s authority / mandate.

I am friends with and respect people on all sides of these issues (WGAC and the patronyms schism) and I don’t see either of them as black or white, so I keep my comments pretty neutral. However, very personally, it is nice to have eBird (which is the 800lb gorilla these days of course) reflect a bunch of splits that have been known and expected for a decade or longer. On the other hand, there is a lot of value in the measured discussions and proposal process of SACC and it would be a shame if it were to be completely marginalized. So again - I sit on both sides of the fence and can criticize or applaud different aspects all over the place. And I remain genuinely curious to see how this all continues to shake out.

I noticed today that Van's SACC web site now says "SACC became affiliated with the American Ornithological Society in August 2020, but is no longer affiliated with the AOS, as of 1 November 2023, when the AOS leadership decided that all eponymous names were to be purged and that the South American Classification Committee would no longer be in charge of English names. SACC is now affiliated with the International Ornithologists’ Union as a regional committee working with the IOU’s Working Group Avian Checklists (WGAC), whose goal is to produce a global classification of birds."

 

[Mysticete]

I noticed today that Van's SACC web site now says "SACC became affiliated with the American Ornithological Society in August 2020, but is no longer affiliated with the AOS, as of 1 November 2023, when the AOS leadership decided that all eponymous names were to be purged and that the South American Classification Committee would no longer be in charge of English names. SACC is now affiliated with the International Ornithologists’ Union as a regional committee working with the IOU’s Working Group Avian Checklists (WGAC), whose goal is to produce a global classification of birds."

That is interesting, but does bring up questions of how independent WGAC in there decision making will be from SACC. It would be...kind of funny if Ebird/Clements splits from NACC only to slavishly follow SACC.

 

[jts1882]

I had thought that the SACC was a committee set up by the AOS, but if they have a long history (from 1998) and only a recent (three-year) affliliation with the AOS, then the split is not such a big deal.

It makes sense that regional committees feed through to the WGAC. There is no need for an intermediary organisation. It just needs more equivalents of the SACC for other regions.

 

[Mysticete]

I had thought that the SACC was a committee set up by the AOS, but if they have a long history (from 1998) and only a recent (three-year) affliliation with the AOS, then the split is not such a big deal.

It makes sense that regional committees feed through to the WGAC. There is no need for an intermediary organisation. It just needs more equivalents of the SACC for other regions.

Absolutely. The regional committees should be a pipeline for taxonomic change.

That said, WGAC should not be a rubber stamp to any single committee. They should have the freedom to decline or accept SACC checklist changes on there own.

 

[thomasdonegan]

I had thought that the SACC was a committee set up by the AOS, but if they have a long history (from 1998) and only a recent (three-year) affliliation with the AOS, then the split is not such a big deal.

I think someone may be trying to pull the wool over your eyes. The AOS was created by merging the AOU and the Cooper Society a few years ago. The AOU was actually the the surviving entity in the merger, so the AOS is just the AOU with its name and constitution changed. As far as I am aware, SACC was from its very start an AOU committee and then became an AOS committee upon the merger occurring. When SACC was established, I recall an AOU press release saying it was needed because the taxonomy of so many NACC area birds depended on what was going on in S America; there was no SACC before that point.

Remsen's own database which forms the backbone of SACC was I believe developed related to his work on the 2nd or 3rd edition of the Howard & Moore checklist which may have been around 1998 - but SACC never existed until last month as anything other than a committee of AOS/AOU (in the early 2000s), as far as I am aware.

 

[jts1882]

I think someone may be trying to pull the wool over your eyes. The AOS was created by merging the AOU and the Cooper Society a few years ago. The AOU was actually the the surviving entity in the merger, so the AOS is just the AOU with its name and constitution changed. As far as I am aware, SACC was from its very start an AOU committee and then became an AOS committee upon the merger occurring. When SACC was established, I recall an AOU press release saying it was needed because the taxonomy of so many NACC area birds depended on what was going on in S America; there was no SACC before that point.

Remsen's own database which forms the backbone of SACC was I believe developed related to his work on the 2nd or 3rd edition of the Howard & Moore checklist which may have been around 1998 - but SACC never existed until last month as anything other than a committee of AOS/AOU (in the early 2000s), as far as I am aware.

Interesting. My comment was based on the full text on the SACC website, before the part posted above by Paul Clapham, saying it became affiliated with the AOS in 2020. As the AOU and Cooper Society merger was 2016 (conveniently removing one eponym), it implies it wasn't an AOS committee between 2016 and 2020. However, a 2014 version of the SACC site says it was a committee of the AOU and a 2017 version that it was a committee of the AOS.

The South American Classification Committee was founded in 1998. Its mission is to create a standard classification, with English names, for the bird species of South America. This classification is subject to constant revision by the proposal system established in 2000 to allow incorporation of new data. Eventually, a hard-copy version will be published. SACC became affiliated with the American Ornithological Society in August 2020, but is no longer affiliated with the AOS, as of 1 November 2023, when the AOS leadership decided that all eponymous names were to be purged and that the South American Classification Committee would no longer be in charge of English names. SACC is now affiliated with the International Ornithologists’ Union as a regional committee working with the IOU’s Working Group Avian Checklists (WGAC), whose goal is to produce a global classification of birds.

South American Classification Committee

Using archive.org, I find this text on the earliest saved SACC site (2014):

The South American Classification Committee is an official committee of the American Ornithologists' Union whose mission is to create a standard classification, with English names, for the bird species of South America. This classification is subject to constant revision by the proposal system to allow incorporation of new data. The SACC hopes to have this classification published as a printed document within a year or so.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140201165300/https://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCBaseline.htm

... and for 2017 ...

The South American Classification Committee is an official committee of the American Ornithological Society. The mission of this committee is to create a standard classification, with English names, for the bird species of South America.

South American Classification Committee

Also the Avian Systematics site says Remsen was a regional consultant for the 3rd edition of H&M.

The third edition (2003)

RH arranged a meeting with Academic Press and, after agreement by RH to appropriate fundamental changes to the Checklist, a contract was signed with Academic Press listing ECD as managing editor of this edition. In fact, much of the compilation was done by Nigel Cleere and Norbert Bahr. Prior to publication, in 2003, the ’title’ was one of several sold to A&C Black (Bloomsbury) by Academic Press and it appeared under a Helm imprint.

This edition also relied heavily on four regional consultants: David Pearson for Africa, Kees Roselaar for the Palaearctic, James "Van" Remsen for the Americas, and Richard Schodde for Australasia, while ECD advised on Asia.

The Howard and Moore Complete Checklist of the birds of the World: printed editions 1–4

The Howard and Moore Complete Checklist of the birds of the World: printed editions 1–4

www.aviansystematics.org

 

[thomasdonegan]

The South American Classification Committee was founded in 1998. ... This classification is subject to constant revision by the proposal system established in 2000
First ever SACC Proposal 1 is dated 4 October 2000. It's not clear where 1998 comes from.

Elevate Rhynchotus maculicollis to species rank

 

[Mysticete]

The South American Classification Committee was founded in 1998. ... This classification is subject to constant revision by the proposal system established in 2000
First ever SACC Proposal 1 is dated 4 October 2020. It's not clear where 1998 comes from.

Elevate Rhynchotus maculicollis to species rank

I would expect there would be a bit of lag between proposal publishing and the initial creation of the committee, especially if the members were busy. I could imagine a year spent hashing out the rules or even deciding how the proposal would be dealt with and voting would begin. Possibly also in just getting the final committee membership solid.

 

[Mike Earp]

The South American Classification Committee was founded in 1998. ... This classification is subject to constant revision by the proposal system established in 2000
First ever SACC Proposal 1 is dated 4 October 2020. It's not clear where 1998 comes from.

Elevate Rhynchotus maculicollis to species rank

4 October 2000 not 4 October 2020

 

[TicoTyler]

Just bumping this thread to see if there have been any updates on the current affiliation or status of the SACC. And if anyone ever figured out the whole mess the thread ended on.

 

[Mysticete]

I don't believe there is any change: SACC is still affiliated with the WGAC, and I haven't heard any news of a AOS trying to create there "own" SACC or anything of that nature

 

[AlexC]

It would be ironic if affiliating with the WGAC eventually drove Remsen from his own creation. Despite differences in this eponymous matter, SACC suffers from the same affliction as the NACC - in its SCOTUS-style lifetime appointments. Term limits and turnover are vital to growth and longterm longevity of these committees. Sad to see hubris hitting the birding and bird science world so hard; in 20 years most of the people arguing loudest will be gone and we will be left to pick up the pieces.

 

[Mysticete]

It would be ironic if affiliating with the WGAC eventually drove Remsen from his own creation. Despite differences in this eponymous matter, SACC suffers from the same affliction as the NACC - in its SCOTUS-style lifetime appointments. Term limits and turnover are vital to growth and longterm longevity of these committees. Sad to see hubris hitting the birding and bird science world so hard; in 20 years most of the people arguing loudest will be gone and we will be left to pick up the pieces.

I think SACC would just divorce itself from WGAC rather than Remsen and other members getting forced out. A better question is does SACC continue to exist as an entity if Remsen no longer runs it.

 

[TicoTyler]

It would be ironic if affiliating with the WGAC eventually drove Remsen from his own creation. Despite differences in this eponymous matter, SACC suffers from the same affliction as the NACC - in its SCOTUS-style lifetime appointments. Term limits and turnover are vital to growth and longterm longevity of these committees. Sad to see hubris hitting the birding and bird science world so hard; in 20 years most of the people arguing loudest will be gone and we will be left to pick up the pieces.

Isn't the saying that science progresses one funeral at a time?

 

[thomasdonegan]

When the rock band Oasis split up, Noel Gallagher and Liam Gallagher started touring separately. The guitarist and drummer (Gem Archer and Chris Sharrock) kept playing and touring with both of the resulting two bands. Following the patronym-related announcements, something similar seems to be going on with American Ornithological Society taxonomic committees, at least for now:

AOS committee member lists as below, and (now non-AOS) SACC committee lists members also set out below (as currently stated).

Remsen has been removed as NACC member and SACC chair on the AOS website but all the other previous members are still listed. Another listed NACC member (Winker) claims in his own webposts to have resigned and Normand David has passed away, but they are still both listed. SACC has its own website, listing all the same committee members as are stated to be on AOS SACC committee (but also those removed at AOS), but now apparently operating under a governance outside the AOS. AOS website still links to the same old SACC website. The legacy SACC website still lists Alvaro Jaramillo and Daniel Cadena, who are co-authors of the patronyms report which led to this schism, as SACC participants. They were both recently criticised heavily on Remsen listserv posts e.g. here.

Does anyone know what is going on? Are all the former SACC members now on two committees, just like Oasis' drummer and guitarist? Will the new committee have a new website?

Idea of this thread is to track committee changes and the future of taxonomic lists - but not to discuss the merits of patronyms please.

Committees - American Ornithological Society (AOS)

The AOS has many standing committees composed of dedicated volunteers who contribute their time and expertise to the benefit of the Society and ornithology.

americanornithology.org

Classification and Nomenclature (NACC)​

Co-Chairs: R. Terry Chesser and Carla Cicero

Members: Shawn M. Billerman, Kevin J. Burns, Jon L. Dunn, Blanca E. Hernández-Baños, Rosa Jiménez, Oscar Johnson, Andrew W. Kratter, Nicholas A. Mason, Pamela C. Rasmussen, Kevin Winker

Early Career Systematics Group: Max Kirsch, David Vander Pluym, Nicholas Vinciguerra

Technical Advisors: Normand David, Daniel Gibson, Michel Gosselin, Dan Haig, Marshall J. Iliff, Michael Patten, Thomas S. Schulenberg

Classification and Nomenclature (SACC)​

Acting Chair: Currently open

Members: Juan Ignacio Areta (Argentina), Elisa Bonaccorso (Ecuador), Santiago Claramunt (Uruguay and Canada), Alvaro Jaramillo (USA and Chile), Daniel F. Lane (USA), Jose Fernando Pacheco (Brazil), Mark B. Robbins (USA), F. Gary Stiles (Colombia), Kevin J. Zimmer (USA)

Technical Advisors: C. Daniel Cadena, David Donsker, Jorge Pérez-Emán, Gary R. Graves , Steven L. Hilty, Mark Pearman, Vitor de Q. Piacentini, Thomas. S. Schulenberg, Bret M. Whitney, Juan Freile, Jhonathan Miranda


SACC:

South American Classification Committee

Current SACC membership = Juan Ignacio Areta (Associate Chair), Instituto de Bio y Geociencias del Noroeste Argentino, Salta; Elisa Bonaccorso, Universidad San Francisco de Quito; Santiago Claramunt, Royal Ontario Museum and University of Toronto; Glaucia Del-Rio, Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology, and Museu de Zoologia da Universidade de São Paulo; Alvaro Jaramillo, San Francisco Bay Bird Observatory; Daniel F. Lane, Museum of Natural Science, Louisiana State University;
J. V. Remsen, Jr. (Acting Chair), Museum of Natural Science, Louisiana State University; Mark B. Robbins, Museum of Natural History, University of Kansas; F. Gary Stiles, Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Bogotá; Kevin J. Zimmer, Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County.

Technical Advisors for Vagrant and Hypothetical Species: Juan Freile, Comité Ecuatoriano de Registros Ornitológicos (CERO); Jhonathan Miranda, Comité de Registros de las Aves de Venezuela, Unión Venezolana de Ornitólogos.

Technical Advisor on Nomenclature: Vitor de Q. Piacentini, Working Group on Avian Nomenclature, International Ornithologists’ Union

Technical Advisor for Hybrids and Dubious Taxa: Gary R. Graves, National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution;

Technical Advisors: David B. Donsker; Steven L. Hilty, Victor Emanuel Nature Tours, Inc., & Museum of Natural History, University of Kansas; José Fernando Pacheco, Comitê Brasileiro de Registros Ornitológicos; Mark Pearman, Mardel Pelagics and Birdquest; Jorge Pérez-Emán, Universidad Central de Venezuela, Caracas; Pamela Rasmussen, Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology; Thomas S. Schulenberg, Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology; Douglas F. Stotz, Field Museum of Natural History; Bret M. Whitney, Field Guides & Museum of Natural Science, Louisiana State University;

Data-base Advisor: Steve Olesen

Editorial Advisors: Paul Clapham; Alan Grenon

Past Committee Members: C. Daniel Cadena, Universidad de Los Andes, Bogotá; Manuel Nores, Centro de Zoología Aplicada, Córdoba; Richard O. Prum, Yale University; José Maria Cardoso da Silva, Conservation International - Brasil

Oasis have now reformed, but the AOS website remains equal, still claiming (most of) SACC as theirs - whilst SACC still disowns such an affiliation and also denies its status as an AOU committee before it changed its name to AOS....

Committees - American Ornithological Society (AOS)

The AOS has many standing committees composed of dedicated volunteers who contribute their time and expertise to the benefit of the Society and ornithology.

americanornithology.org

 

[Mysticete]

Oasis have now reformed, but the AOS website remains equal, still claiming (most of) SACC as theirs - whilst SACC still disowns such an affiliation and also denies its status as an AOU committee before it changed its name to AOS....

Committees - American Ornithological Society (AOS)

The AOS has many standing committees composed of dedicated volunteers who contribute their time and expertise to the benefit of the Society and ornithology.

americanornithology.org

Probably has more to do with no one taking the time to update than any political statement. IIRC, the webmaster duties for a lot of professional organizations is voluntary?