Declining Song birds..Farming practises (1 Viewer)

Some good points there.

I've known a lot of farmers and although some are very much in it for the business, most enjoy living in the countryside with the wildlife and don't deliberately do things to harm wildlife, pure financial reasons make it necessary at times - if we can make money in our jobs to buy expensive bins, scopes, cameras, holidays, etc., then they are entitled to do the same.

Many farms used to have areas that were not fit for cultivation and the work needed to remedy this - drainage, etc., would have cost more than they could ever get back.

Then along comes the 'Common Market,' as it was when we joined, and gave out grants to do the work thus giving the farmer the chance to earn more money from his land just by filling in the relevant forms!

If someone made a similar offer to me, I'd take it!

Here's a snippet of conversation with a local farmer from a couple of years ago:

I was talking to him as he was digging in a ditch when someone else came along and said:

'Hello, John, are you digging out them thistles?'

'No,' said the farmer, 'I leave them for the birds!'

Adey Baker said:

SNIP
Here's a snippet of conversation with a local farmer from a couple of years ago:

I was talking to him as he was digging in a ditch when someone else came along and said:

'Hello, John, are you digging out them thistles?'

'No,' said the farmer, 'I leave them for the birds!'

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Bit different to the conversation I had with one a few years ago. It ended with the farmer saying "The trouble with Peewits is - they breed at the wrong time of year".

Andy.

Anthony Morton said:

For my part, I've only got a picture of King George on a horse, a shirt without a tail AND a sister in the WRENS who wears gaiters. What's more, I've now reached the ripe old age where, if I had only known that I was going to live this long, I would have looked after myself better!

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Glad to know I am not the oldest fart here Alas you sense of humour appears to be fading in your dotage.

Jane Turner said:

Glad to know I am not the oldest fart here Alas you sense of humour appears to be fading in your dotage.

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Ms. Turner,

That's the stuff to give 'em - when all else fails just hurl an insult. You are a credit to both your generation and superior education!

Anthony

Hi Anthony,
While I agree that some people may have been slightly disingenious in their postings to this thread,the way that you have responded has been disgraceful,especially for one who is so obviously concerned about good manners etc.
RESPECTING one's elders is one thing;deferring to them purely by virtue of their seniority is another thing entirely,and I for one won't do that!
I find it ironic that a young 20 something know-nothing 'mushroom' that accepts facts uncritically such as I should have to tell you this.
You,sir,are a rude and pompous man,who is in danger of destroying any credibility that you may have by such an attitude.If you left your facts argue for themselves instead of indulging in petty swipes at those who couldn't know any better(i.e.anyone younger than yourself),then your cause would,I suggest,be better served?
End of rant,normal service will be resumed as soon as possible....
Yours sincerely,
'An upstart'(and an Irish one at that!)

Anthony,I think you should be down on the farm,ive never smelt so much bull***t..cant remember the last time I went birding on a farmers field,although im sure some people do, I live in the kind of area were I dont have to,and I can safely say ive never really had to in the past either,,although I have visited the countryside and found public rights of way blocked (why dont councils do more to stop this) and once had a shotgun waved in my face by one of these "stewards of the countryside" maybe ive just had a bad experience!!

I see Anthony Morton is still following the same old tack that he followed in the Sparrowhawk thread, everyone's opinion is wrong unless it happens to agree with his!!! We can't all be wrong can we ????

nirofo.

I think we all have slightly different views and prejudices..and long may it remain so

Whoops! I seem to have stumbled into a discussion that got a bit off the topic that I understood this thread to be. Never-the-less, I'll throw in a bit about my neighbourhood here in Canada.
I moved to a area that was farming land about 10 years ago. But the farming was mainly cattle, with lots of hay fields and other fields just left to grow whatever came up. There were plenty of weed seeds for a variety of birds. In the ten years I've been here, many more houses have gone up and acres of chemical lawn have replaced wild places. The farmers have also become more efficient in using their land, so little remains for the birds. Nesting places have disappeared as have food sources. Now I sit in my office, looking out at my bird feeders with their dozens of clients, but when I go for a walk, I see nothing. The birds have been 'penned' here in my yard.
I don't blame anyone; I'm just telling the story. Habitat is disappearing.

It certainly looks as though my Posting No. 37 has ruffled a few feathers, doesn't it? Yet despite putting up numerous facts and figures relating to changing farming practices for discussion, and even quoting my source, with one notable exception most of what has come back has been insults and snide remarks. Yet when you get some of your own medecine back in return, it's shock, horror, drama because that 'nasty man' Anthony Morton has dared to address you like that.

The one ray of sunshine is Posting No.58 from 'saluki', which at least deals with the topic under discussion sensibly, rather than slagging anyone off and trying to score points. As for Jane Turner, nirofo, Sparrowbirder and Harry Hussey, they have not commented on, or challenged, even one of the statistics I gave. Does this mean that they agree with what I have written, I wonder, or is it possibly because they simply don't have an answer?

Anthony

Harry Hussey. [I said:

Hi Anthony,

Nice to know that you got your facts about the reasons for continued declines of 'songbirds' from those world renowned scientists at 'Save Our Pigeons...I mean Songbirds'.

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[/I]

Harry,

Sorry, I almost missed this one!

Naturally I bow to your superior knowledge - I wasn't even aware that the scientists at 'Save Our Songbirds' were world renowned, but Ill certainly take your word for it if you say so.

And that's the second time you've mentioned pigeons and then corrected yourself. Do you have an ulterior motive for this, or are you just trying to confuse me?

Anyway, I've made a note to check this for myself and I'll report back if I learn anything new.

Regards,

Anthony

Anthony Morton said:

It certainly looks as though my Posting No. 37 has ruffled a few feathers, doesn't it? Yet despite putting up numerous facts and figures relating to changing farming practices for discussion, and even quoting my source, with one notable exception most of what has come back has been insults and snide remarks. Yet when you get some of your own medecine back in return, it's shock, horror, drama because that 'nasty man' Anthony Morton has dared to address you like that.

The one ray of sunshine is Posting No.58 from 'saluki', which at least deals with the topic under discussion sensibly, rather than slagging anyone off and trying to score points. As for Jane Turner, nirofo, Sparrowbirder and Harry Hussey, they have not commented on, or challenged, even one of the statistics I gave. Does this mean that they agree with what I have written, I wonder, or is it possibly because they simply don't have an answer?

Anthony

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Anthony.

Moderately hard to make a balanced reply since it wasn't that clear what the point you were making was.

Yes there have been some great strides forwards... in the last few years... (that was the point wasn't it) but it takes years, probably 10's and maybe even 100's of years for a full recovery to occur once the damage to the fine balance of the ecosytem is done...

Hi Anthony,
I have no concrete information of my own,not having investigated the people behind SOS(though I seem to recall that one of their 'leading lights' is a prominent member of the British pigeon racing fraternity,so perhaps HE'S the one with an ulterior motive...?),but,interestingly enough,I have seen car stickers for the organisation on two cars here in Cork city:both were parked outside houses with large pigeon lofts(and precious little habitat for any 'songbirds' except the odd House Sparrow,Starling and Pied Wagtail).Coincidence?I think not!
Perhaps there may be people involved with SOS that are genuinely concerned about the fate of passerine populations,but I would guess that many members,including those mentioned above,have their own reasons for spreading 'black propaganda' about raptors:after all,they possibly have a far better chance by playing the 'songbirds in decline' card than they would if they just came clean and stated that they wanted a cull of Sparrowhawks and Peregrines in order to minimise pigeon losses?
In relation to your points about farmland having improved for birds in the last ten years:I can't speak for the UK(though I suspect that it's far less attractive to birds than it was 30+ years ago),but here in Ireland it has most certainly become less attractive to wildlife in general.Where once(and even in my relatively short lifetime to date)there were fields with a mixture of grasses,decent hedgerows etc,we now have mile after mile of ryegrass monoculture(which is extremely poor in biodiversity:I should know,having had to walk through fields of it when surveying Peregrines(yes,we had permission)),with hedgerows being rooted up in favour of electric fences.Changes in the sowing times of cereals have reduced the amount of stubble left through the winter,and what is left is all too often ploughed into the ground around now.Populations of 'weeds' and insects have tumbled,wet patches drained etc.
Fields left fallow under REPS schemes,which in theory could be a boon to many species,are all too often treated with herbicides,leaving them devoid of life.
As a result,we have now lost the Corn Bunting as a breeding species here(to put into context just how rare the species now is in Ireland,it has been added to the list of species requiring a substantiating description by the IRBC!),Yellowhammers,though locally common,may well follow suit,Lapwing have declined greatly,Grey Partridges are now confined to one relict population in Cffaly etc.
I must stress that the blame,if any is to be levelled,should not be laid squarely at the farmer's doorsteps,but more at a series of failed European farming policies and also perhaps today's ever-demanding consumers(with the note that SOME farmers are undoubtedly 'bad eggs',as in all walks of life).
I rest my case,and please note that I haven't stooped to the levels of sarcasm that I did previously.
Harry H

Anthony Morton said:

Why come to Leicestershire? Isn't this forum for discussing such matters?

Anthony

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I'm afraid I don't follow all that you have written. I didn't read the "sparrowhawk" thread, maybe that's why. Are you maybe conflating the two threads in your mind? Anyhow, I mentioned Garendon Park because I thought it was just the kind of farmland that you would agree to be fairly typical of today; although, rather unusually, it is still dominated by rather smallish fields. With my youngest brother, we've watched over it for perhaps forty and more years - I can still recall skidaddling from the shouts and threats of its owner, long since passed away - but in later years we more maturely chatted over things with him and he welcomed our birding jaunts. I thought it was the sort of place you might enjoy doing a bit of personal and empirical research - always useful stuff: so objectively clear.

Anyhow, as you seem not to have commented on what really mattered in my reply to your first posting, here is the list of species that once thrived in the Park and provided such joy to so many - young and old alike: snipe, woodcock, grey partridge, yellow wagtail, lapwing, tree sparrow, yellow hammer, little and barn owl, golden plover, hare, cowslip, violet, marsh marigold, ragged robin, ladysmock...

A fairly typical list of species that have declined on almost all British farmland, I would guess. So, I suppose in one way you are right - you wouldn't have to trek all the way up here as a similar story has almost certainly unfolded itsellf on your own doorstep.


And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England’s pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!

I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England’s green and pleasant land.

​

This is a fairly complex point so I’ll try and explain it simply…with a consequent risk of making it sound like a sweeping generalisation.

There are a wide number of factors which can affect the survival rate of songbirds. It’s important to differentiate between those that are in a feedback relationship and those that aren’t.

Using the much maligned Sparrowhawk as an example… Sparrowhawks eat small passerines and the number of small passerines declines… until the point were there is insufficient food for the Sparrowhawks. Since Sparrowhawks have no alternative food supply, the number of Sparrowhawks then decline and the level of predation drops…and the passerine poulations increase…. and so on ad infinitum. Without pertubation from the outside it’s a stable system.

The trouble comes when there is a pressure on the passerine population that is not in a feedback relationship. Like climate change, pesticide use and loss of biodiversity.

Am I missing something but didn't the Sparrowhawk population decline drastically in the 50's & 60's ? So I presume its just recovering. Am I being overly simplistic?

I think of the three you mention, biodiversity is by far the most important - and, if so, the easiest to do something about.

Certainly, pesticides were used heavily during my early lifetime, yet species diversity remained very high (excluding raptors). And the effects of climate change, if any, appear of little or no consequence.

But biodiversity? The area in which I live has seen a range of changes to its large areas of farmland that seem to me to be like a microcosm of the national picture and all of which are antagonisitc to our native flora and fauna:

a) total loss of marsh and marshy areas;
b) all ponds filled in;
c) near total loss of grazing;
d) major "tidying up" of all odd corners and strips of grassland;
e) no winter stubble
f) crop ripening and harvesting out of sync with breeding activity;
g) lack of animal excreta;
f) local sewage farms now clinically clean.

pduxon said:

Am I missing something but didn't the Sparrowhawk population decline drastically in the 50's & 60's ? So I presume its just recovering. Am I being overly simplistic?

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Hi,
The Sparrowhawk did decline in the 50`s 60`s due to DDT which has glady been banned, but what about the new so called pesticides ? even the banned and controlled ones seem to still be used.
Certain areas are seeing benefits from Stewardship Schemes northants has 300+ but is it enough and in time?.
662,000 houses are to be built along the M11 corridor and just outside, this mass over development will surely have an adverse effect. Light and noise pollution are now being treated as a serious problem. Is enough being done to make the Government aware.
Suricate

Suricate said:

Hi,
The Sparrowhawk did decline in the 50`s 60`s due to DDT which has glady been banned, but what about the new so called pesticides ? even the banned and controlled ones seem to still be used.
Certain areas are seeing benefits from Stewardship Schemes northants has 300+ but is it enough and in time?.
662,000 houses are to be built along the M11 corridor and just outside, this mass over development will surely have an adverse effect. Light and noise pollution are now being treated as a serious problem. Is enough being done to make the Government aware.
Suricate

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That flipping airport isn't going to help now is it. I suppose there's no chance that they'll site it equidistant between Liverpool, Manc and Brum is there? Bit sad when you see people from Stoke coming to Stanstead (or is it Stansted? never can remember) to fly out of the country.

pduxon said:

Am I missing something but didn't the Sparrowhawk population decline drastically in the 50's & 60's ? So I presume its just recovering. Am I being overly simplistic?

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No you are not missing something As had been said that was largely due to DDT artificialy reducing the breeding success of Sparrowhawks and other raptors....so again being simplistic about this.. all other things being equal, you could argue that the passerine population in the period was at a higher level than the dwindling resources of the ecosytem could naturally support.