40d... where do i go from here!! (1 Viewer)

I have been enjoying bird photography with my canon 40d and 100-400is lens for a year now and am going to by a scope for my bird watching.

I was thinking of the swaro sts80hd. Would this be good to use with the 40d for digiscoping? or would a different scope be better, or perhaps when digiscoping is a different camera a better idea?

Thanks for your help.

mark f said:

I have been enjoying bird photography with my canon 40d and 100-400is lens for a year now and am going to by a scope for my bird watching.

I was thinking of the swaro sts80hd. Would this be good to use with the 40d for digiscoping? or would a different scope be better, or perhaps when digiscoping is a different camera a better idea?

Thanks for your help.

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Hi Mark,
The swarovski scope is certainly an awesome scope. you may want to get a thin little 50mm pancake lens. you can then use the swaro DCA adapter to hook it up directly to the scope using the filter thread.

I have seen some great images using this setup so I dont think you can go too far wrong with it.

happy birding

mark f said:

I have been enjoying bird photography with my canon 40d and 100-400is lens for a year now and am going to by a scope for my bird watching.

I was thinking of the swaro sts80hd. Would this be good to use with the 40d for digiscoping? or would a different scope be better, or perhaps when digiscoping is a different camera a better idea?

Thanks for your help.

Click to expand...

Hi Mark, I started off digiscoping using a Nikon 995 that I still have no longer used, I sold my Swaro 80HD...good choice of scope. I have since upgraded to DSLR I was quite successful digiscoping but its a fiddle of a job plus you need lots of patients that has put a lot of users off, I know a few guys in my area that gave it up as bad job. You will not be able to use your 40D attached to a scope, but you can buy the expensive swaro Canon fit adaptor but you will lose light. If you still intend to try digiscoping you will need to purchase a camera with a 28mm lens thread, I am not knocking this method I have done both compact cameras have improve since Nikon 995 but that was still a used by many photographers..
Regards
Roy.

Hello Mark,

Why don't you save yourself some money and go with an astro scope instead. They work extremely well with DSLRs

Complere recipe here:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=100519
Long read, but worth it.

Quoted from this review: "... the TeleVue 85mm Evergreen scope, which continues to offer the most breathtaking optical image available anywhere on this planet..." See page 3 of this review:
http://www.livingbird.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=272#top

Granted, this scope is almost as expensive as the best spotting scopes but there are scopes selling for less than half the price that also produce excellent results. SkyWatcher, Williams - Astro-Tech refractor doublets are all worth while purchases.

thanks very much for your input. I did think that digiscoping would be quite difficult for obvious reasons. Why dont they make the 500is a bit cheaper!!!

mark f said:

thanks very much for your input. I did think that digiscoping would be quite difficult for obvious reasons. Why dont they make the 500is a bit cheaper!!!

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Ah ! Another one of those 8-P I know that feeling - this is exactly what got me into digiscoping. Welcome to the club !

Having gone over to using a dslr and long lens, I have now gone back to Digiscoping.

But I digiscope with a Fuji F10 compact camera. Compacts dont shake the scope like dslr's do (dslr mirror flipping causes shake).

The dslr is good for fast close shooting. But the digiscope setup beats it on everything else. As for picture quality, the 6mp fuji easily does as well as my 10mp alpha and 500mm lens.

digitalbirdy said:

Having gone over to using a dslr and long lens, I have now gone back to Digiscoping.

But I digiscope with a Fuji F10 compact camera. Compacts dont shake the scope like dslr's do (dslr mirror flipping causes shake).

The dslr is good for fast close shooting. But the digiscope setup beats it on everything else. As for picture quality, the 6mp fuji easily does as well as my 10mp alpha and 500mm lens.

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My experience has been the opposite - I have MUCH BETTER results with a DSLR.

Digiscoping is not without drawbacks however. A digiscoping setup is big and heavy - it is slow and all manual - focus is much more difficult - and if you use a P&S camera, you have to work without a viewfinder and protect your LDC from the sun.

mark f said:

I have been enjoying bird photography with my canon 40d and 100-400is lens for a year now and am going to by a scope for my bird watching.

I was thinking of the swaro sts80hd. Would this be good to use with the 40d for digiscoping? or would a different scope be better, or perhaps when digiscoping is a different camera a better idea?

Thanks for your help.

Click to expand...

Mark

Yes it would, and other choices of scope could be Kowa 883/ Zeiss 85, you also need to decide if you prefer a straight or angled scope?

You have three choices to digiscope with your 40D -

1. To use a spotting scope, with a photo adapter, and a T2 mount connecting the 40D body.

2. To use a spotting scope, scope eyepiece (zoom or fixed low mag) and a 50mm camera lens, with some form of adapter/bracket to connect/support the 40D

Both these methods will require a sturdy tripod and head to support the above options

3. To use an Astro spotting scope as suggested by Jules, the thread he qoutes will give you all you need to know about this method, but some are heavy and in most cases are not waterproof.

Pros/Cons

Pros

You have the ability to shoot raw with most DSLRS, only a few P & S compact cameras have RAW at the moment

You have a powerful reach, i.e typically 2000mm or more with a scope (in relation to your 400mm lens)

You can do bursts when taking pics, some compacts do this, but nowhere near the same frame rate and number of shots befor the buffer kicks in, so action and flight shots are possible, though not easy.

Cons

Not all people can focus through the viewfinder, this is THE biggest hurdle to overcome IMHO along with fieldcraft and requires time and patience to get the best out of this setup.

These setups require light especially with a spotting scope, so high ISO speeds are required, 400, 800, the pics can be grainy, but can be cleaned up with a noiseware package,

Days with bad light are a NO NO if using your finger to take pics, even if you are using a remote or electronic cable release, this is one area where compact cameras do very well, if you are in sunny Florida, then fine, but in downtown Suffolk how many bright days do you get in a year? it all depends on what you take pics of and the distances involved, and more importantly what shutter speeds you are getting with your setup

If you have the oppurtunity to go to a shop and try the above options out, then take it, you will instantly see what you prefer to use, as we can all pontificate on what is the best way to go for you?

Good Luck!

Paul

Nice interesting post Paul. However, I don't share your opinion on 2 points.

I don't buy the argument on noise. Today's DSLR exhibit very low noise up to ISO 800 and even ISO 1600 for some. IMO, they are much better than P&S cameras with their small sensors that become very noisy over ISO 100.

Also, I don't share your opinion on focus. Both camera types require manual focus. On the P&S, you need to focus the scope for the autofocus of the camera to lock reliably and even then, it will still lock on a focus that not very accurate. Also, on many P&S, focus is quite slow and unreliable if the light is not very good. Finally, you must rely on the LCD which can be very difficult to view in sunny conditions, even with a shade.

With the DSLR, you must focus manually but you have a very good viewfinder to help you do it accurately. Personnaly, I find it easier. Also, it is possible to add an innexpensive AF focus chip to your camera adapter to allow focus lock when you have achieved optimum focus.

The way I see it, there are 2 clear cases where the decision is easy:

1. If you want to keep it simple, go with a P&S solution
2. If you are looking for distance, go with a DSLR and astro-scope solution.

In all other situations, it is a matter of personal choice, cost and availability of components. No clear answer unfortunately.

JGobeil said:

Nice interesting post Paul. However, I don't share your opinion on 2 points.

I don't buy the argument on noise. Today's DSLR exhibit very low noise up to ISO 800 and even ISO 1600 for some. IMO, they are much better than P&S cameras with their small sensors that become very noisy over ISO 100.

Jules you are talking in general terms, and its only with high end DSLR's (Nikon D3 eg.) will your point be valid, fact, Mark is talking about his 40D, i was making him aware of what he will find, please dont generalise, it gives the wrong impression, most DSLR digiscoping pics need noiseware reduction applied to clean them up, you agree that sureley? again as i mentioned in my post :t:

Also, I don't share your opinion on focus. Both camera types require manual focus. On the P&S, you need to focus the scope for the autofocus of the camera to lock reliably and even then, it will still lock on a focus that not very accurate. Also, on many P&S, focus is quite slow and unreliable if the light is not very good. Finally, you must rely on the LCD which can be very difficult to view in sunny conditions, even with a shade.

You obviously havent been doing both methods long enough Jules, you would know that there is always some room in focusing a P & S to get an OK pic, the DSLR route takes no prisoners, if your off the mark it shows. LCD? you have the choice of a swing out adapter so you can focus through the eypiece, dont know which shades you have been using but the ones i use work very well

With the DSLR, you must focus manually but you have a very good viewfinder to help you do it accurately. Personnaly, I find it easier. Also, it is possible to add an innexpensive AF focus chip to your camera adapter to allow focus lock when you have achieved optimum focus.

As i said, not everybody has the ability to do this, its down to each person's eyesight

The way I see it, there are 2 clear cases where the decision is easy:

1. If you want to keep it simple, go with a P&S solution
2. If you are looking for distance, go with a DSLR and astro-scope solution.

In all other situations, it is a matter of personal choice, cost and availability of components. No clear answer unfortunately.

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Thats why i suggested that Mark goes to a shop to try things out

Although I respect your opinion Paul, I cannot say that I share it.

A simple modification to a dslr that most people don't do or didn't realize could be done is to change the focusing screen to one that is similar to those found on old slr cameras, as in when everyone used manual focus lenses. Since the advent of auto focus lenses the focusing screens on late slr's and dslrs have lost the manual focusing aids like split prisms and micro prisms. Manual focusing screens are readily available for dslr's and make manual focusing a doddle plus they take less than a couple of minutes to fit. Not being able to focus isn't an excuse as long as you make the right modifications

I totally agree with Jules about ISO noise. There's no issues at all on my 450D with noise all the way up to ISO 1600, for a budget model the 450D is a great camera in all aspects. Main thing I find that will introduce noise is getting the wrong shutter speed or over sharpening the image. The only time I use noise reduction software is to blur out the background to make it more out of focus than the scope provided. This is a common trick that bird photographers use to fake a bit more softness. I don't remove any noise at all from the actual birds in any photos I post. I use Noise Ninja and the noise brush tool makes this job easy. In the RAW conversion in Lightroom I keep noise reduction set at zero by default.

I digiscoped with spotting scopes and p&s cameras for around 5 years before switching to dslr and astro scope. I got a few good shots with the old method but for me the dslr combo wins easily. Today as an example I took 133 photos, just messing around in the back garden photographing blackbirds and blue tits out to 35m range. I'd say 90% or more of the images were correctly exposed and in focus and I just had a simple task to pick out the best poses. I'd have got no where near that sort of success rate with a p&s camera. What I like with a dslr is that everything is in my control and so ultimately practice makes perfect.

Paul.

Well said Paul.

I think both ways, P&S and DSLR, have their strong and weak points. I find it ok to prefer one over another but I sure don't like it when one decides that one is better than the other...

Instead of Noise Ninja, I use Gaussian Blur to blur out the background - it is easy to control and you can add as much as you want. NN works well also.

Paul, have you tried the focusing screen that gives you a split screen ? There is one on eBay that is not expensive. I wonder how well it works.

JGobeil said:

Well said Paul.

I think both ways, P&S and DSLR, have their strong and weak points. I find it ok to prefer one over another but I sure don't like it when one decides that one is better than the other...

Instead of Noise Ninja, I use Gaussian Blur to blur out the background - it is easy to control and you can add as much as you want. NN works well also.

Paul, have you tried the focusing screen that gives you a split screen ? There is one on eBay that is not expensive. I wonder how well it works.

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Last week I tried a focusing screen out of an old slr camera I had gathering dust in the garage. I cut it down to the same size as my Canon one although I didn't do a good enough job to make it worthwhile keeping it in the camera apart from to test it. It didn't have a split prism, all it had was a large micro prism ring with a clear centre and even that was a big improvement on my Canon one that has no manual focusing aids at all.

Regarding the ebay ones, I've read good reports about them so I ordered one 3 days ago and I'll write up a full report once it arrives. Delivery is 10-16 days to the UK.

For noise removal another good method that closely mimics noise ninja is to create a duplicate layer in photoshop, apply noise reduction or blur, then use the history brush to remove the blur from the bird and any other stuff in the foreground. Works just like the noise brush in noise ninja.

Paul.

Paul Corfield said:

...Regarding the ebay 'focusing screens', I've read good reports about them so I ordered one 3 days ago and I'll write up a full report once it arrives. Delivery is 10-16 days to the UK. ...
Paul.

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I shall look forward to this report Paul - and hope I do not miss it.

Adrian

will jump in with my few items,,

currently shooting with a Nikon P5000 P&S and an Olympus E3 DSLR,, I started digiscoping when I bought my Nikon 990 back in early 2001 and I was heavy into astronomy,, I had several scopes so figured I would hang the 990 on one and try some bird photos,, in fact Televue contacted me about using a few of my photos I posted on Astromart (which I agreed) and they are still used on their web site in their bird section to advertise their scopes birding abilities,,

I have taken many thousands of photos with several P&S cameras though several scopes and have acquired some excellent photos and as we continually see here on the forum the P&S cameras can do very good,,

if I were suggesting a rig to a newbe I would recommend buying a good scope which will last many a year,, if you plan on being out in the elements (rain) then do consider this but your camera will also need to be weather proof,, yes I know the plastic bags work well as I used them for years with all my film gear but it is nice to know a shower is not going to ruin your equipment,, I have had my E3 which is weatherproof on my TV85 which is not in some showers and never had an issue,, if it was heavy rain I would pull the scope out of service and most likely even myself and head inside,, just do not like working in those conditions,,

since you have the 40D your half way there,, I personally do not find the DSLR to be any more troublesome to use on my scope than the P&S,, I do find the DSLR to be better for me to acquire quicker and better focus and as mentioned the ISO range is far more usable on those overcast days,, I also like shooting in RAW which many P&S do not offer,,

with most people the deal breaker is how deep are your pockets,, can you buy the best (most of us cannot) so with given funds what is available,, as you can see by asking for direction you will receive various opinions from those that are now working the field and the opinions still be diverse,, most of us puddled along trying this and that with little direction from others to arrive at our position,, certainly can be fun,,

I have used astronomy scopes for years and never thought about buying a scope sold or marketed as a pure birding scope such as Zeiss or Swaro builds,, I know Neil uses a bird scope and certainly can prove the quality of product with his photos be it from a P&S or DSLR,, they do make some very good equipment but I also like to still gaze the night skies and love 200x on Orion's belt so I will remain with my astro gear,, for your choice what is the best arrangement of hooking your 40D to a scope that still offers latitude of power (X factor) adjustments which is important and ease of operation,, since I have been using astronomy gear and find it works great and certainly covers all my needs I would recommend a good astro scope which your 40D will certainly work fine through,,

Derry

With P&S cameras there is an option to use any magnification eyepiece. Am I correct in thinking that DSLR's limited as regards magnification, when used directly on a scope?

Or are there now ways of using a dslr on a scope which allows more than the use of the scopes base magnification factor?

Read this thread:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=100519

It is quite a long read but it will teach you all you need to know about digiscoping with a DSLR. Enjoy !

digitalbirdy said:

With P&S cameras there is an option to use any magnification eyepiece. Am I correct in thinking that DSLR's limited as regards magnification, when used directly on a scope?

Or are there now ways of using a dslr on a scope which allows more than the use of the scopes base magnification factor?

Click to expand...

You use teleconverters which come in 1.4X, 1.5X, 1.7X, 2X and 3X varieties. The better quality ones can be stacked together. You can also add a macro tube between the camera and teleconverter which can double or treble the teleconverters power with very little loss in light or image quality. You can easily get up to 3000mm if needs be but generally this is way too much. For 40m range I generally just use my 1.4X Kenko Pro teleconverter. Out to a 100m I use a 2X and that's pretty much all I need.

With a dslr there is also a lot more power to crop the image in very closely because the camera has captured a lot of detail so you don't need massive amounts of magnification. You can usually go for lower magnification and be confident that the image will look good once cropped. This keeps the shutter speed high no matter what the weather. I was out in the back garden tonight in pitch black shooting just with the light from a nearby street lamp. I was at 1200mm, ISO 1600 and 1/5 shutter speed and there's no noise at all in the photos, they look like they were ISO 400.

Paul.