• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

carnioli (1 Viewer)

Rafael,
Thank you very much indeed for your fascinating insight into the names and family histories of your very famous ancestors. I have amended the entries in the HBWAlive Key, and gratefully acknowledge your vital input. I visited the paradise that is Costa Rica a few years ago, and can support your comments on its wildlife.
James
 
Thanks!

Thank you James!

The only other correction I would suggest (if I may) is that Julian Carmiol didn’t immigrate to Nicaragua. They entered Central America through the San Juan River (which belongs to Nicaragua), but because that river is the only way to Sarapiquí port (in Costa Rica).

In fact, he came to Costa Rica because of a colonizing project made between the government of the recently formed country of Costa Rica and several major cities in Europe (in this case Berlin). The reason for this project was to attract knowledgeable people (like doctors, biologists, etc.) giving them free land.

Anyways, thanks for the interest!
 
Last edited:
Welcome to BirdForum, Rafael! And what an entrance!! :t:

Many thanks for sharing the facts regarding your family, and great to know that I managed to organize most of the many pieces in this puzzle, that I wasn't all that wrong. Your reply will definitely improve my MS (of Swedish Common Bird names), and its entry regarding the Olive Tanager (Habia) Chlorothraupis carmioli, a k a Carmiol's Tanager (alt. carmiolkardinal, in Swedish).

According to my MS, as of today (without yet having edited it, based on your reply), they [i.e. Juliius Carnigohl (the future Julian/Julián Carmiol), and his four (motherless) children (incl. little Franz, the "Francisco" to be) as well as Julius's brothers Franksius and Robert, together with a small group of naturalist, including Alexander von Frantzius (1821–1877) and Karl Hoffmann (1823–1859)] arrived (on the 14th of December 1853) in the Port Greytown (today's San Juan de Nicaragua, earlier known as San Juan del Norte), in SE Nicaragua, and from there the Carnigohl family crossed the border into (their goal, and the whole reason for their trip) Costa Rica, where they arrived in January 1854. ... and onwards [... into the Annals of Natural History (where they became known, and somewhat famous, as Carmiol)].

If needed/necessary, I will return with more questions onwards (whenever time allows, a bit too busy at work right now), whenever I'm about to give my good old MS its final touch.

Cheers!

Björn
--
 
Last edited:
A welcome from me as well. Do you know the parents as well? Form this part of the thread?

Calalp said:
Meanwhile, if anyone feel like trying to trace the Parents of Julian (Julius?) Carnigohl (i.e. Senior, "our guy", the collector, a k a Julián Carmiol), born 1 January 1807, in Berlin, Germany ... who died 6 October 1885, in San José, Costa Rica (wife in post #8) ... go for it!

This far I haven´t been able to find them; the Parents of Carmiol (Senior), the Grandparents of Franz ...
Click to expand...
 
I understand now!

Thank Björn! Im starting to get overwhelmed and frustrated with the contradictory data!

I re-started to do some research on Carmiol senior's parents (I've tried to do this in the past and failed). Amazingly (at least for me), I did found who's parents were for Julian Carmiol, and this time not from Costa Rican (somewhat incorrect sources, but from German records).

Apparently, Christian Friedrich Julius Carnigohl father was Johann Friedrich Wilhelm Carnigohl (born in 1790, no dead date), married to Hanna Johanne Charlotte Grassnick, which would explain the Grassnick second last name in all Costa Rican records (as per Costa Rican naming standards).

Now, and sorry if I'm upsetting people here, apparently Julius' birth date (from German records) was 1817 and not 1807. At this point, I will just continue my research. I now fully understand why Björn was starting to get fed up by my family, haha.

Here's the link: https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/MV93-35V/christian-friedrich-julius-carnigohl-grassnick-1817-1895
 
If this was truly in Schleswig in 1817 (or 1807) that would actually mean that his birthplace was in Denmark (or at least in a fiefdom subordinate to Denmark), not Germany. That only changed after the war of 1864.

Niels
 
Maybe a typo?

njlarsen said:
If this was truly in Schleswig in 1817 (or 1807) that would actually mean that his birthplace was in Denmark (or at least in a fiefdom subordinate to Denmark), not Germany. That only changed after the war of 1864.

Niels
Click to expand...

I though this was the case, but I think its an error in the creation of the "person" in familysearch. Let me explain:

I looked into where the source of the Schleswig location was, and got this message:

This extracted IGI record was used to create this person.
Click to expand...

Looking into this, I got this disclaimer:

In November 2014, FamilySearch added extracted records to Family Tree. FamilySearch attached the extracted record as a source on an existing Family Tree record.
In most cases, this process worked correctly. You can tell because the details on the extracted record either match or are very similar to the details in Family Tree.
Sometimes an extracted record seems to be attached to the wrong person in Family Tree. The details on the extracted record are different from the details in Family Tree.
Click to expand...

Now, I do think the...
Berlin, Klein Bennebek, Schleswig, Schleswig-Holstein
Click to expand...
... place is just an error created when the location was extracted from elsewhere. The reason I think this is that one month later, you have Carmiol senior's baptism on 07 Feb 1817 and the location is: SANKT NIKOLAI, BERLIN STADT, BRANDENBURG, PRUSSIA, which in my search is modern day Berlin (capital of Germany). Then there is a long list of records, birthplaces of all his sons and daughters, baptisms, funerals, all on the same location: SANKT NIKOLAI, BERLIN STADT, BRANDENBURG, PRUSSIA or NAZARETH, BERLIN STADT, BRANDENBURG, PRUSSIA, which is probably the same place, different church.

Also, Carmiol senior's had a sibling named Carl Christian Carnigohl, who was born in 1815 and died in 1816 (a year before Carmiol was born). The location of these events... SANKT NIKOLAI, BERLIN STADT, BRANDENBURG, PRUSSIA.

I would be quite a coincidence that Carmiol senior's father lived in the German city of Berlin by 1816, traveled to Denmark's Berlin in Jan 1817 to have a kid, and a month later traveled back to the German city of Berlin, and settled there for the rest of his life. Then again, I could be wrong...
 
Last edited:
I agree with your comments.

But still the question 1807 or 1817 as birth year? But if the father was born 1790 he would be a young father in 1807 (but still possible). With birth 1794 for his mother I tend even more to 1817.
 
German needed!

Taphrospilus said:
But still the question 1807 or 1817 as birth year? But if the father was born 1790 he would be a young father in 1807 (but still possible). With birth 1794 for his mother I tend even more to 1817.
Click to expand...

I have three very large images (8000x6000) with what I think is the birth record. The source of these scans is called: "German, Luther Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, 1519-1969". But I need a German person to translate it. It does state the date of 1817, so I think this can set the record straight. I can't attach the full image in here because of size, I am attaching screenshots. I can send them to you Taphrospilus as a private message as I see you are German, if you want. No problem?

Hopefully this also states the location of birth and clarifies the Berlin thing.
 

Attachments

  • Captura de Pantalla 2019-11-12 a la(s) 11.39.46.jpg
    Captura de Pantalla 2019-11-12 a la(s) 11.39.46.jpg
    32.4 KB · Views: 19
  • Captura de Pantalla 2019-11-12 a la(s) 11.40.19.jpg
    Captura de Pantalla 2019-11-12 a la(s) 11.40.19.jpg
    38 KB · Views: 18
  • Captura de Pantalla 2019-11-12 a la(s) 11.41.21.png
    Captura de Pantalla 2019-11-12 a la(s) 11.41.21.png
    232.5 KB · Views: 20
Last edited:
Carmiol said:
I have three very large images (8000x6000) with what I think is the birth record. The source of these scans is called: "German, Luther Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, 1519-1969". But I need a German person to translate it. It does state the date of 1817, so I think this can set the record straight. I can't attach the full image in here because of size, I am attaching screenshots. I can send them to you Taphrospilus as a private message as I see you are German, if you want. No problem?

Hopefully this also states the location of birth and clarifies the Berlin thing.
Click to expand...

From attached I seé that he was born 2. January 1817 and not 1. January (as claimed earlier). Berlin I do not see but parts are very difficult to read. Is there more info in the scan? In this case I would give it a try and would appreciate if you can send it to me.
 
Last edited:
Taphrospilus said:
From attached I seé that he was born 2. January 1817 and not 1. January (as claimed earlier). Berlin I do not see but parts are very difficult to read. Is there more info in the scan? In this case I would give it a try and would appreciate if you acn send it to me.
Click to expand...

I agree that the date is 2 Jan 1817. Thats what it says both in the birth one as in the baptism one.

I just sent the scans by private message. Hope you can decipher something. Let us know what you can find!
 
Calalp said:
Born 1 January 1807, in Berlin, Germany, of unknown Parents, ... first wife Augusta (1811-1850) née Prössel (as well written either; Pröessel, Proessel or even Preschl!?!) ... emigrated/settled down to/in Costa Rica (as in post #14), ... second marriage, in 1857, with miss Flores (no years) [i.e. Paula Vicenta Flores García, Daughter of Manuel Flores and his wife Rafaela García], resulting in four more Daughters, ... collector for various Museums (Smithsonian, Berlin, London), [he used a long, one-piece wooden blowgun (like the Natives) to catch many birds!], and onwards ... until he died; on the 6th* of October 1885 – at the age of 78.
Click to expand...

From the document Rafael provided I think a couple of things need to be corrected:

Born 2 January 1817, in Berlin son of Friedrich Wilhelm Carnigohl and Johanna Charlotte née Grassnick

First wife Charlotte Friederike Auguste Prössel (1811-1850) (death not confirmed by the documents but in second marriage he is called a widower (Wittmann)).
Second wife Susanne Amalie Reinertel (not 100% sure when reading the last name) (1816-??) married in St. Georgen Kirche (assume Berlin) 26 July 1851. Not sure what happend to that marriage.

In certain areas I failed to read the documents especially if they talk about Profession (Stand) of the father and/or Christian Friedrich Julius Carnigohl. For me unreadable.
 
Last edited:
Taphrospilus said:
Born 2 January 1817, in Berlin son of Friedrich Wilhelm Carnigohl and Johanna Charlotte né Grassnick
Click to expand...
This, I think is clear beyond any reasonable doubt. He was born on 2 Jan 1817. I didn't understand the "né" part between the mothers name and the last name, but her mother was Hanna Johanne Charlotte Grassnick, so this is clear. Every single record is from SANKT NIKOLAI, BERLIN STADT, BRANDENBURG, PRUSSIA, including his baptism, so I can assume he was born there. Even in the biographies of Rohrmoser and Hoffmann, they talk about Carmiol as a fellow German, so I think the Danish Berlin is safely out of the question.

Taphrospilus said:
First wife Charlotte Friederike Auguste Prössel (1811-1850) (death not confirmed by the documents but in second marriage he is called a widower (Wittmann)).
Second wife Susanne Amalie Reinertel (not 100% sure when reading the last name) (1816-??) married in St. Georgen Kirche (assume Berlin) 26 July 1851. Not sure what happend to that marriage.
Click to expand...
This, got me completely confused but now I see it's quite a discovery! Per my family's lore, Christian Friedrich Julius Carnigohl Grassnick (Carmiol senior) came to Costa Rica as a widower, a few months after the death of his wife Charlotte Friederike Auguste Prössel, who died 31 of August of 1950. Again, by my family's lore, he came alone, with 4 of his sons.

However, I see that he arrived to Costa Rica on January 1954, so it was NOT a few months later. Looking over in these records, I did find that Carmiol senior, had three more daughters between 1952 and 1955 with a woman named Susanne Amalie Reinicke (she was completely unknown for my family until today). I looked into Susanne, and she was born in SANKT NIKOLAI, BERLIN STADT, BRANDENBURG, PRUSSIA (Im starting to believe that Carmiol senior never lived anywhere else in Germany but that town, before moving to Costa Rica). Now, and here is the interesting part, Susanne died in 1955, in Lepanto, Puntarenas, Costa Rica. So unless she teleported herself there, she made the trip to Costa Rica with Carmiol senior (although apparently, completely forgotten from any historical records).

Carmiol senior did have a known wife after that, Paula Flores García, a Costa Rican woman, married 16 Feb. 1957, with which he had another 7 daughters.

All this makes sense to me, because all the known Carmiol family stem from Carmiol senior's first marriage (Augusta Proessel). Now it is clear that this is because with his second and third wife, he had only daughters, 10 total, losing the family name the next generation.

So in summary, 3 marriages, 16 children, he kept himself busy...
 
Last edited:
The née means the European way of naming the wife. Here in Germany she lost her name (not as in latin America) and this addition should indicate her maiden name.
 
Last edited:
'Née' is French for 'born' in the feminine -- 'nacida' in Spanish. But indeed, often used unmodified in English to indicate the name that a married woman bore at birth.
 
Last edited:
I want to thank everybody for the help in sorting out my family. Just sorting out a HBWAlive key got more info on my family that I could've found on my own, and to that I am grateful to all of you.

I want to share one last piece of info on my great-grandfather, that you could find interesting.
ORCHIDS AND ORCHIDOLOGY IN CENTRAL AMERICA. 500 YEARS OF HISTORY. Ossenbach 2009 said:
Together with Hoffmann and von Frantzius arrived the gardener Julian Carmiol (1807-1885), in the company of his brothers Franksius y Robert. He would stay in Costa Rica for the rest of his life. His real name was Julian Carnigohl, a widower whose wife had died in Germany a few months earlier. He came to Costa Rica with four children, Ana, Berta, Franz, and Julio Carnigohl. When they arrived in Costa Rica they changed the name to Carmiol. “A naturalist by profession, he felt especially attracted to horticulture and ornamental plants, as well as to wildlife and ornithology...” (Carmiol Calvo, 1973: 4). He travelled to the Smithsonian Institute and to England in 1867, and seems to have had an arrangement with Osbert Salvin (one of the editors of the Biologia Centrali-Americana), to collect birds and butterflies in Costa Rica (Letter from Salvin to Dow, November 1, 1867). In a letter to Professor Spencer F. Baird of the Smithsonian Institute (April 29, 1862) Captain John M. Dow refers to a collection of birds from Costa Rica: “The person I bought them from is a German gardener living in the outskirts of the city”. “Many of the Costa Rican plants that were adopted by European floriculturists owe their introduction to this humble German gardener” (Pitier, 1908: 21). Carmiol also collected herbarium material and birds, which he sent to American and European institutions. We know, from letters by Baird and Salvin, that in 1867 he formed a large collection of objects of natural history which he personally took to Washington and London. Bovallius tells us about Carmiol in his old years, during the Swedish biologist’s visit to Costa Rica in 1882: “I paid several visits to an old German collector and merchant, Carmiol, and I never tired to admire his beautiful orchard, where he had collected a large amount of rare plants from all regions of Costa Rica.... For those who study this [...] flora in the museums of Berlin and London, the name of Carmiol is well known, because many interesting species have been sent by him to their collections” (Bovallius, 1974: 120).
Among his collections of orchids we find Lycaste xytriophora Linden & Rchb.f. and Epidendrum campylostalix Rchb.f. Helmuth Polakowsky wrote about another orchid, Vanilla sp., in 1876: “I have never found vanilla in the market and only in the house of a German gardener [J. Carmiol] did I see by chance fresh pods, which his people had brought him from the forests behind Angostura” (Polakowski, 1940). As Frantzius wrote: “Nobody has examined so thoroughly the slopes of the Central American mountains” (González, 1921: 87). We remember Carmiol in Phaedranassa carmioli Baker, of the Amaryllidaceae and Crotalaria carmioli Polakows. of the Leguminosae. Besides being a gardener, Carmiol owned a restaurant in San José.
Click to expand...

I remember in one of the earlier posts Björn talking about a Swedish biologist, I think that is Bovallius.
 
Carmiol said:
I didn't understand the "né" part between the mothers name and the last name, but her mother was Hanna Johanne Charlotte Grassnick, so this is clear.
Click to expand...

From the documents you provided I would reject the Hanna and would read it as Johanna Charlotte Grassnik only.

Note: Hanna is a abbreviation for Johanna.
 
Carmiol said:
...
I remember in one of the earlier posts Björn talking about a Swedish biologist, I think that is Bovallius.
Click to expand...
You remember it correctly Rafael; when I started to check the carmioli Birds that certain Ossenbach paper (from 2009) was one of my (many) references, as well as one of the reasons for my hesitations/doubts on what was then known/claimed regarding the dedicatees, even if Ossenbach (apparently) got the years of Julius/Julián a bit wrong ... ;)

And yes, the Swedish naturalist Carl Bovallius both met and visited your great-great-grandfather Don Carmiol (see #9).

I´ll be back.

Björn

PS. If of interest, for more info on Mr Bovallius himself, see Wikipedia; here, alt. here (the latter in Swedish).
 
Warning! This thread is more than 4 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

l_raty
alexandrovi (alt. alexandrowi)
Replies
0
Views
219
l_raty
l_raty
Taphrospilus
Gallirallus australis hectori (Hutton, 1874) and others
Replies
0
Views
293
Taphrospilus
Taphrospilus
Taphrospilus
Hydrornis schneideri (Hartert, EJO 1909)
Replies
2
Views
512
Björn Bergenholtz
Björn Bergenholtz
Taphrospilus
Cyornis lemprieri (Sharpe, 1884) , Platylophus galericulatus lemprieri Nicholson, F 1883 and Anthracoceros lemprieri Sharpe, 1885
Replies
5
Views
462
l_raty
l_raty
Taphrospilus
Minor, minor on Arachnothera eytonii Salvadori, 1874
Replies
3
Views
362
l_raty
l_raty

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top