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'Ethical' binocular companies (6 Viewers)

John Cantelo

Well-known member
Whilst most of us tend to buy binoculars entirely on the basis of cost and utility, some may have reservations about purchasing instruments from companies that actively support hunting. If so, they may find this report on 'ethical' optics companies useful http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/portals/0/downloads/optics report.pdf
If nothing else the report gives a interesting short (very short) account of the history and background of various companies.
 
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With all due respect to your position and personal feelings, John, I must respectfully disagree with your post.
Short story at end, long story below:
I live in the US; we have guns, we hunt; I do not care to hunt for sport alone, however I fully support those who hunt animals for food that are not endangered or exotic, such as our exploding population of white tail deer; I know those who help to feed their families in this way. Having seen animals led to the slaughter house and killed in a not very humane, but rather terrified manner, a skilled hunter's clean kill without suffering is far more humane. Now, to the crux of the matter: whether a manufacturer supports hunting or not, has no bearing whatsoever upon how the optical product will be used; the same manufacturer who states nothing about hunting could have their product used to spot and kill endangered animals for sport, or could have their product used for spotting and reporting upon whale population/activity. Conversely, because a manufacturer supports hunting doesn't mean that product will be used for that purpose, it might well be used to spot birds in the garden. Take it a step further, I personally don't care for dropping a lobster into boiling water, but I can't very well hold every pot manufacturer liable for people who choose to cook in this way. Short story: I respect your views, but not your method.
 
A very interesting article, John. The company profiles are full of juicy tidbits, even if the hunting part is ignored.
Unfortunately I'm sure the hunting contingent here will be up in arms and the moderators will likely squelch the whole thing. I'm bookmarking the address.
 
OK, I'll stick a couple of oars into these rather troubled and contentious waters...

Without wanting to "pick a side" here, I'll note that at a first skim-read of the paper (while on a train, so it really was skimming) I thought it bore many of the hallmarks of "advocacy research" in that it tried to give the appearence of impartiality while selecting cases and studies inclining, or trying to guide the reader, towards a pre-determined conclusion. One of the things which hit a bit close to home for me was the lack of discussion of a job I once had, a great many years ago, which was exterminating ferral pests on rural properties (and believe me, with some of the species introduced down here, and the damage they do and have done, "ferral" is a pretty strong indictment). Often using firearms because poison and other measures were too indiscriminate and so too likely to hit native, and certainly non-target, animals as badly (or worse) than the pests. Where does that fit in the "ethical" calculus of the paper? On a skim read, hardly at all. Any supplier of equipment I was likely to use would, as near as I can tell, be considered unethical. But for that purpose? Really?

(BTW, I wasn't doing it for fun - which it most certainly wasn't. I was doing it for the money, and not much of that. But I still think I was on the side of the angels rather than the devils when I did it. I'll also note that I've not owned a firearm since, nor shot at anything but targets - and then only on a handful of occasions. It's really not my thing. But I do hesitate before moving to condem. I also hesitate because I'm rather unsure that this is appropriate within the rules of the forum, at least anywhere but Ruffled Feathers and maybe not even there.)

...Mike
 
With all due respect to your position and personal feelings, John, I must respectfully disagree with your post..

There is not anything to really disagree with. The relevant words in John's posts were "some may have reservations about purchasing instruments from companies that actively support hunting. If so, they may find this report on 'ethical' optics companies useful".

As I understand John is not advocating all persons should read it or take its findings into account, but only those that do have reservations. Seems fair enough to me - if you don't have reservations, then disregard it.

So, for me, it is difficult to disagree with the post, it simply provides a report for anybody with an interest in this issue.
 
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I'm still struggling to find the central thesis of this report. It seems to target 'sport hunting' but that is a vague group. Many people hunt for both sport and food. Also, the suggestion of "new techniques for population control, e.g. sterilization" is a bit absurd but I won't speak much more on that point.

'Ethical' seems a bit of a stretch, anyways, as there are ethical sport hunters and unethical food hunters (who are not apparently the target of this report).
 
There is not anything to really disagree with. The relevant words in John's posts were "some may have reservations about purchasing instruments from companies that actively support hunting. If so, they may find this report on 'ethical' optics companies useful".

As I understand John is not advocating all persons should read it or take its findings into account, but only those that do have reservations. Seems fair enough to me - if you have reservations, then disregard it.

So, for me, it is difficult to disagree with the post, it simply provides a report for anybody with an interest in this issue.

Thanks, Jos. I thought I'd been careful to make the distinction which you've picked up on. You're right in your understanding of my comment and my intentions in posting the information. Some birding friends, unlike me, would have profound reservations about buying from companies that actively promote any form of hunting so I thought the information would be helpful. Personally, as a non-vegetarian, I would only argue against specifics (e.g. use of lead shot, related persecution issues, etc) rather than hunting per se. Leaving aside the main thrust of the report, I thought the details about each company interesting and not something I've seen collated elsewhere.
 
A very interesting article, John. The company profiles are full of juicy tidbits, even if the hunting part is ignored.
Unfortunately, I'm sure the hunting contingent here will be up in arms and the moderators will likely squelch the whole thing. I'm bookmarking the address.

I agree with your first couple of points, Henry, but fear your conclusion may yet prove accurate. I'm certainly gratified that a real expert like yourself found it useful enough to book mark.
 
Interesting reading, can't help noticing that pretty much all of the most popular and widely considered best brands amongst birders are all listed as some of the most pro hunting. I certainly wont be swapping my Swarovski's any time soon.
If you are bothered about buying products from ethical companies then I would have thought in the grand scheme of things optics would be a small concern really. Not much point going out to buy ethically produced optics whilst dressed head to toe in clothes made by some kid in a sweat shop on the other side of the world.
 
Thanks, Jos. I thought I'd been careful to make the distinction which you've picked up on. You're right in your understanding of my comment and my intentions in posting the information. Some birding friends, unlike me, would have profound reservations about buying from companies that actively promote any form of hunting so I thought the information would be helpful. Personally, as a non-vegetarian, I would only argue against specifics (e.g. use of lead shot, related persecution issues, etc) rather than hunting per se. Leaving aside the main thrust of the report, I thought the details about each company interesting and not something I've seen collated elsewhere.

I too hope folks can see the post as a pointer to a source of information for those who want it, rather than prescriptive.

In the habitats I've spent time in, feral cats and feral pigs are notable problems for a lot of species. Unfortunately, unless the territory under consideration is quite literally an island, exterminating ferals once they're already feral is a losing proposition, as the reservoir of new individuals is so huge and in the case of cats so many "owners" are happy to have cats which spend time as pets and time with ferals.

Even on an island under Federal rather than State jurisdiction and with little input from the "save the animals" people, the work required to address pigs is breathtaking.

Heard some but not all of a Radiolab broadcast this last weekend that spent some time looking at Darwin's Finches in the Galapagos, and some time looking at tortoises and a goat eradication project to protect the tortoises' habitat.

More on that vermin eradication program in the Galapagos is here

http://www.galapagos.org/conservati...-areas/ecosystem-restoration/project-isabela/

With all that said - I respect people who take their own ethics into consideration as they choose what to buy. I make choices along those lines some but not all of the time, and know I'm not making perfect choices.

I know there are plenty of folks who prefer not to buy binoculars made in China, for example, in part for reasons of quality and in part for reasons of ethics and/or politics. I'm not going to tell someone looking at sourcing of gear for those reasons not to do so. This situation seems parallel.
 
As an avid hunter; I'll support which ever company makes the best glass for my eyes, and use the product how I choose. For those concerned with optic companies stances on hunting, they have the right to know such information.
 
A very interesting article, John. The company profiles are full of juicy tidbits, even if the hunting part is ignored.
Unfortunately I'm sure the hunting contingent here will be up in arms and the moderators will likely squelch the whole thing. I'm bookmarking the address.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander right Henry? If the story was about optics companies who didn't support the hunting industry, the crying and whining would be deafening. Give me a freaking break.
 
What's good for the goose is good for the gander right Henry? If the story was about optics companies who didn't support the hunting industry, the crying and whining would be deafening. Give me a freaking break.

Well, at least it gives a tiny look in Who's who in the optic industry.
I found it educating. Couldn't care less about the hunting part;)

Jan
 
Ethical binocular companies

Sport/trophy hunters only make up a moderate percentage of hunters, most guided hunts are sport/trophy hunters but the rest are what are called meat hunters and subsistence hunters.
Here in Alaska a large proportion of hunters are meat and subsistence hunters along with what can be called recreational hunters.
Having worked for the US government and State of Alaska I can tell you that any human intrusion upsets the balance of nature and that includes birders and wildlife observers. Simply living (as a human) upsets natures balance...someone out in the woods clicking away with a camera for instance.
Flushing your toilet, turning on your stove or even breathing.
Sport/Trophy hunters in most states in the US and Canada are highly managed and when they step outside the lines they go to jail along with the guide.
So my question is what constitutes "ethical", suppose you discovered that ISIS had obtained a number of brand X binoculars and had used them in preparing for the attacks in France or that company X had sold binoculars to country X who's military are known for committing atrocities or the optical glass from company X was sold to company Y who then produced military optics that where used by country M's military to kill civilian demonstrators.
Pretty much every optics company has produced "dual use" optics, just like any company that produces pickup trucks can find them used by "technicals".
Lots of Chinese optics were used by the dictatorships in Mynmar and other countries, the bino's made by aus Jena were used by the VOPO's during the cold war and other Warsaw Pact secret police units yet people prize them for their performance.
How far do we go?
Art
 
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