Accipiter , Belgium (1 Viewer)

[arran]

Saw this Accipiter hunting in Flemish marshes ( Belgium )today.Seems to be a mature female.
Sparrowhawk or Goshawk?

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,

its a female Sparrowhawk imo. Just by gut feeling.

Regarding ageing, I hope for Tom and others to jump in.nd a question from me: does this bird have 2 different generation primaries?

edit: and wow, what a picture! Stunning, what a skilled photographer can achive with modern equipment. Tfs!

 

[HouseCrow]

NIce bird and photo indeed. (you probably just forgot but) could you reveal in the thread title where the photo was taken? I think it is not some random marshes in Flanders, but some known spot in the UK...but I can't tell...sorry

cheers,
Gerben

 

[01101001]

No barring on inner secondaries--Goshawk? Also, a robust brow, full white undertail coverts and a hulking bill, FWIW. Waiting for further input.

 

[HouseCrow]

thanks Arran,
I should have taken the hint, as you wrote Flemish marshes, not Flemish Marshes...

sorry about that,

ps. your username made me think you were British, so I could easily see Flemish Marshes (just off the A34) being a thing in say Norfolk.
cheers,
Gerben

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello Gerben,

thanks for your comment!

At first I thought, that this is such a small bird, but then Buttys words came into my mind again: thanks Butty!
And while I still get the feeling of a compact and neckless bird, the features you mentioned cant be overlooked.

Yes, many Goshawks have an even broader and obvious supercilium and more solid dark ear-coverts and some have slightly greyer upperparts, this all is within variation.

Is the irregular barring on the breast a feature against Goshawks normally more parallel barred breast???

I hope for more comments and pictures. Thanks Gerben again!

 

[KenM]

First impressions “a big bodied bird”, with a particularly short distance between UTC’s and tail end?

 

[Torchepot]

I showed this to Andrew Butler (who produced the excellent Goshawk flight ID guide)
and he replied

“Nice photo.
I would say male Northern Goshawk in its second plumage ie 2nd or 3rd calendar - 2cy if it was taken last autumn.
I’ve inserted a photo for comparison, of Goshawk v Sparrowhawk in similar positions. I’ve made them similar sizes for illustrative purposes.
At this age, and in this view, the pattern of the secondaries is key.”

 

[Rotherbirder]

First impressions “a big bodied bird”, with a particularly short distance between UTC’s and tail end?

Nice one Ken, we're getting there! Look at the size of the bill too.

RB

 

[KenM]

Nice one Ken, we're getting there! Look at the size of the bill too.

RB

Got there a long time ago RB……

 

[PYRTLE]

Got there a long time ago RB……

But doesn't that knock the underside inner secondary barring theory into a cooked hat ( post #8 )......you're image shows evenly well spaced and marked barring across all the secondaries in a young streaked bird. Puzzling, no?

 

[01101001]

I think it wasn't supposed to work for (fresh-plumaged?) juveniles (= vertical streaking on underparts).

EDIT:

Hawks, Moscow

Hi everyone! I need help with these two hawks, since hawks are always tricky to me. The photo is not mine, it was taken in September 2023 in Moscow. I'm pretty sure that the bigger bird is a goshawk, but not sure about the smaller one. Is it small enough to be a sparrowhawk?

www.birdforum.net

 

[KenM]

But doesn't that knock the underside inner secondary barring theory into a cooked hat ( post #8 )......you're image shows evenly well spaced and marked barring across all the secondaries in a young streaked bird. Puzzling, no?

Think we’ll need to ask an “expert” on that one Pat.👍

 

[PYRTLE]

Think we’ll need to ask an “expert” on that one Pat.👍

Agree but I don't believe Mr Forsman follows BF.

 

[01101001]

Hawks, Moscow

Hi everyone! I need help with these two hawks, since hawks are always tricky to me. The photo is not mine, it was taken in September 2023 in Moscow. I'm pretty sure that the bigger bird is a goshawk, but not sure about the smaller one. Is it small enough to be a sparrowhawk?

www.birdforum.net

tconzemi spoke about it in another thread, and Collins guide agrees (the 3rd edition; all previous editions got the pictures wrong, apparently)

 

[Butty]

the 3rd edition; all previous editions got the pictures wrong, apparently

Edns 1-3 all show underside of juvenile inner secondaries the same - barred.

 

[01101001]

yes, the difference is in the adult

 

[Torchepot]

Alexander (many thanks by the way!) posted this link on a previous thread and I urge anyone with an interest in Goshawk ID to give it a good read.

Northern Goshawk flight identification and ageing in the UK - Revised and updated

Forsman‘s 2016 Flight ID of Raptors of Europe etc. has 11 photos of Goshawk, 5 juvenile, 5 adult and only one sub-adult, it isn’t as comprehensive in detail particularly with the difficult sub-adult plumages (in my opinion).

 

[Rotherbirder]

Got there a long time ago RB……

This is by far the easiest plumage to ID Gos in so, not quite yet Ken 😉 !

RB

 

[KenM]

This is by far the easiest plumage to ID Gos in so, not quite yet Ken 😉 !

RB

I’m not biting RB!