Jeffbennett12
Well-known member
I just saw that ad for the 12X50 SE on Cloudy Nights yesterday. If I didn’t have an 12X50 EL arriving very shortly I would have been all over the Nikon. I doubt any competitor near that price would be as good.
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Advice on a good 12x50+ that won't break the bank (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter hopster
- Start date
Elkhornsun
Well-known member
B&H is selling the Vortex Viper 12x50 for only $460 which is an excellent bino at a bargain price. When I compared the Vortex Razor UHD against the Vortex Diamondback the main difference was the narrower FOV with the Razor and the clearer background behind the subject. Overall color fidelity and image sharpness was the same.
One can pay three times as much to get a 1-2 percent gain in image quality from binoculars and of course bragging rights with having the most expensive binocular hanging off their neck. For my eyes the gain is in added magnification and a middle of the range 10x is better than a high end 8x binocular.
One can pay three times as much to get a 1-2 percent gain in image quality from binoculars and of course bragging rights with having the most expensive binocular hanging off their neck. For my eyes the gain is in added magnification and a middle of the range 10x is better than a high end 8x binocular.
Very nice price and it's been on my radar ever since I first tried out the Viper lineup. The UHD has at least one other area in which it excells, and that is close range focusing ability, which is somewhere around 6' or so.
hopster
Well-known member
OK, so if I decide the break the bank after all 🙈 what would people here choose between the Swaro EL and and Leica UVHD+?
My limited experience of Leica (Noctivid 8x and 10x) suggests the best colours with the least loss of red but with some fall-off near the edge along with the best build quality, and with Swaro is a field that stays sharp all the way to the edge and maybe a bit less CA but with a slightly bluer/colder colour balance and a little susceptible to glare. However, I have not looked through either 12x50. I often use binoculars with spectacles and I realise this could be marginal with the Leica though my prescription is not huge (-2.5) and I can just about get away with the Oberwerk 12x50 SE.
The Roger Vine reviews on scopeviews certainly lean towards the EL but he seems mostly focused on astronomy where the flat field would be a big bonus (and the colours not so much) and e.g. I feel he doesn't give the Leica Noctivid enough praise for the excellent colour rendition and contrast in daylight use, so maybe his perspective is somewhat skewed by that compared to my own use patterns (i.e. distant birding and nature first, astronomy second).
Thoughts please from people who own or have looked through and compared both!
P.S. I realise that Meopta and Vortex UHD are also possibilities but I am thinking about these as a long term purchase and so things like servicing and build are considerations along with more obvious IQ issues like CA and colour balance.
My limited experience of Leica (Noctivid 8x and 10x) suggests the best colours with the least loss of red but with some fall-off near the edge along with the best build quality, and with Swaro is a field that stays sharp all the way to the edge and maybe a bit less CA but with a slightly bluer/colder colour balance and a little susceptible to glare. However, I have not looked through either 12x50. I often use binoculars with spectacles and I realise this could be marginal with the Leica though my prescription is not huge (-2.5) and I can just about get away with the Oberwerk 12x50 SE.
The Roger Vine reviews on scopeviews certainly lean towards the EL but he seems mostly focused on astronomy where the flat field would be a big bonus (and the colours not so much) and e.g. I feel he doesn't give the Leica Noctivid enough praise for the excellent colour rendition and contrast in daylight use, so maybe his perspective is somewhat skewed by that compared to my own use patterns (i.e. distant birding and nature first, astronomy second).
Thoughts please from people who own or have looked through and compared both!
P.S. I realise that Meopta and Vortex UHD are also possibilities but I am thinking about these as a long term purchase and so things like servicing and build are considerations along with more obvious IQ issues like CA and colour balance.
Swarovski EL 12x50.
dries1
Member
If you wear glasses, chances the UV HD Leica will be a bit short on eye relief. I have both (SV and UVHD)and love the Leica view with respect to color during the day and under the night sky - even with out the sharp edges near the field stop as the SV has. I view without glasses and my issue with the UV is the eyecups could be about 1-2mm longer (need to engineer some overlapping rubber eye cups) mainly when I am viewing to zenith I get some kidney beaning. The Leica is also superior in the prevention ghosting at night, as the UV HD 10X50 is as well.
The SV has more eye relief, so more pliable from an ergonomic standpoint, I can view the SV on two settings with the eyecups - all the way out or one in from full extension. Both the UV and SV have the same field of view as well.
IMO these are the best offered today in the 12X50 format for both terrestrial and astro viewing.
Last edited:
The Ultravid is the binocular that made me want a 12x50, followed by the EL, and I really liked it too, until I found out what rolling ball view was, taking it out of consideration for me. Then I tried the UHD and still like it very, very much.
My hope would be that you’ll be able to try some of these binoculars and let your own hands and eyes find the best model for you.
hopster
Well-known member
Thanks, that's useful.
How would you describe the difference in colour balance between the two for daytime viewing?
hopster
Well-known member
It's proving tricky to see any of them, so getting them all together in the same place will be a challenge!
How would you describe the colour balance differences between these 3?
Conndomat
United States of Europe
Hi,
In my opinion, Leica binoculars are always a little more saturated compared to Zeiss and Swarovski, especially in red/brown, and the UV 12x50 is no exception.
The Swaro EL line has a slightly cooler color, is more dominant in blue/white, while Zeiss stands out more in green/yellow.
I think every manufacturer has its own color philosophy, which often applies across series.
Andreas
hopster
Well-known member
That's what I expected.
Sounds like a competition between better colour and glare resistance (& better build?) on the one hand vs flatter field and better eye relief (& better focuser?) on the other.
Conndomat
United States of Europe
It is very individual which color rendering is preferred, similar to flat field or not, so it's not really a competition, it's just different philosophies
When it comes to glare resistance, all manufacturers offer good binoculars, although Leica probably has the largest selection here.
Andreas
With a serious purchase like a top tier 12x50, likely to be used for difficult and demanding observations, I would make every effort to try both candidates. I've not tried the Ultravid 12x50 but (for what it's worth) in 10x50 I thought the EL SV, though larger/heavier/bulkier, was visibly superior in every respect optically - brighter, sharper and in general giving an impression of superior image quality. This was a few years ago now though (2019 Birdfair) so coatings etc may have changed (there was some talk of this re Ultravids a few months back). Ergonomics/handling is also important - with 12x you will get more jitter/wobble, so if one is steadier in your hands than the other, that may be an important factor. I'd strongly recommend you do everything possible to compare the two, even if it can't be side by side.
hopster
Well-known member
Yes I'm sure that is good advice, just not easy to do. I'm most concerned about ER on the Leica with spectacles.
I almost always use a 12x on a tripod when static, or when mobile a home-made adaptor which turns my walking pole into a flexible finn-stick/monopod. This works very well and makes a huge difference to image quality, basically reducing jitter to an irrelevant level. It's even useful for an 8x.
The EL I am thinking of is 2nd hand (from 2011) and so has the old style strap lugs which I prefer anyway. I'm not sure how much coatings will have changed in that time. It is advertised as SV so I assume it has the flat-field optics. I think it also has the older armour because it looks perfect!
An EL SV 12x50 with the old strap lugs without FP. Perfect! The coatings probably didn't change at all. I would go for that in a minute. How much did they want? Those EL SV 12x50's have beautiful optics. That is the best 12x50 you will find. It isn't numero uno on Allbinos for no reason.
Binoculars rankings - 12x50 - AllBinos.com
The best binocular tests on the net. The comprehensive database of binoculars with their parameters and users opinions. Interesting articles and comparisons.
Last edited:
Conndomat
United States of Europe
what are you, short-sighted or far-sighted?
The Leica should be scarce anyway, but the Swaro is often not comfortable, at least for those who are far-sighted.
Andreas
hopster
Well-known member
I'm about -2.5, so near-sighted.
Conndomat
United States of Europe
Then the Swarovski should work but without guarantee, the specified 19mm. the eye relief should be noticeably exaggerated, for me it is very narrow.
The Leica is completely unusable for me in this respect.
Andreas
Elkhornsun
Well-known member
Last week I bought the Vortex Razor HD that B&H is selling for $800. I like the Razor UHD but could not see any gain for the additional $600. I like that they only weigh 28.7 ounces. I could pay 4 times as much for Swarovski but could not feel comfortable doing so and the 35 ounce weight is a bit off-putting.
hopster
Well-known member
So an update and final decision! Also thanks to those I have messaged here privately for their opinions because they had experience of some of the optics that I was considering:
I hope I didn't forget anybody!
I have now investigated the options and had extended trials of the two best that I could get my hands on within budget and which appeared to match my requirements. These were the Oberwerk 12x50 SE porro and the Meopta Meostar B1+ 12x50 HD roof.
Just to reiterate what my need is: something that I can use with glasses that really pulls in distant objects (usually birds) and shows their detail clearly better than the Noctivid 8x, which is my default go-to binocular. It will have to be good to keep up with the Noctivid let alone beat it. I also want it to have the absolute minimum CA because I will often be looking at things that generate it e.g. the moon or solitary birds against the sky. This was the main reason I chose the Oberwerk and Meopta because they both have a reputation for excellent CA performance, unlike many 12x50s including perhaps the otherwise excellent Swaro EL in my brief experience and the opinion of some others here. I also want good glare performance in tricky lighting situations e.g. against the sun or under a bright overcast sky.
Originally I did not think I would need a fast focuser because I assumed the objects of interest would not be moving fast towards or away from me, and so I took a slight risk and ordered the Oberwerk 12x50 SE from oberwerk.eu only on the basis of the reports of others. This turned out to be optically very good: bright, very little CA, a neutral colour balance and sharp almost to the edge (though not a very wide FOV it has to be said). Perhaps not quite as sharp or contrasty as the very best but close and with that 'natural transparency' that I believe only comes with porro or AK prisms. However, I soon realised that following birds in flight was quite possible with a 12x50 but difficult with the stiff and slow focuser on the Oberwerk. Unfortunately, only 3 months after buying it, the focuser on the Obie has also developed flat spots (sometimes slipping altogether) and the diopter seems to be going out of adjustment constantly, and so I am now in the process of returning it for a refund because it doesn't seem like it will last very long mechanically. This is a shame as it presents a lovely image, especially at the price. I'm sure a good example will satisfy many people.
So then I bought the Meostar on sale or return. Comparing colour to the Noctivid 8x (my reference for accuracy) I see a very similar balance with plenty of red present but perhaps with a bit less blue/violet and a very slight amber tinge. I'm not expecting anything to compete with the Noctivid though - especially in a 12x - so that is fine. Anyway, if I had to choose I would prefer 'warmer than neutral' to the alternative of 'cooler than neutral' which is how ELs and NLs always leave me feeling. The EL 12x50 is probably the only real competitor that can be comfortably used with glasses in terms of image quality and with better eye relief, but as several people here have said it may also be less sharp in the centre and almost certainly shows more CA and glare, so that puts me off especially at the much higher price. If I was doing more serious astronomy then I would look at the EL option more closely though because of the wide and flat field, but for me it's secondary to nature observation and birdwatching where my attention is usually right in the centre. Stars and planets look great in the Meostar actually, we had some very dark (and cold) nights recently and I saw both the Andromeda galaxy and Saturn's largest moon Titan for the first time. Apparently the latter is not usually expected to be feasible with a 12x, but there it was.
Current honest thoughts after trying the Meostar in many different conditions for a while are: they are very sharp indeed in the centre for a 12x and with almost no CA even in challenging conditions, the focuser is well-geared and smooth, and they handle potentially glare-inducing light very well. They also feel very solidly built. Colour balance is very nice if a tiny bit warm (slight amber/gold tint) and perhaps lacking some blue. Despite the sharpness and contrast, the view is relaxing and subtle in a way that is difficult to describe. If you look right at the edges of the FOV you start to see distortion as well as focus blurring, but for a 12x mostly being used for long range nature observation and bird ID that is not really an issue for me at all as I am concentrating in the centre 70% which is all sharp. For astronomers who want a completely flat field it might be more of an issue. They are not the brightest optic at dusk, but not far off the NV. The ER could be better with glasses but I have tried my own hack based upon HenRun's excellent idea and this gives 1-1.5mm extra over the supplied eye cups, which is enough and in fact even lets me get too close with my smallest glasses so that I can start getting some kidney bean/blackouts if I push against the glasses too hard, so the flexibility is there if necessary.
So I have decided to keep the Meopta Meostar B1+ 12x50 HD! The combination of excellent image qualities that suit my preferences, good focuser and very solid build backed with a 30 year warranty are too good to give up, even with the marginal eye relief using glasses and the less than top level brightness. I strongly recommend it to others who have similar needs to my own.
HenRun (in particular)
Lewis
Rg548
dries1
looksharp65
FredrikJerner
Samolot
I hope I didn't forget anybody!
I have now investigated the options and had extended trials of the two best that I could get my hands on within budget and which appeared to match my requirements. These were the Oberwerk 12x50 SE porro and the Meopta Meostar B1+ 12x50 HD roof.
Just to reiterate what my need is: something that I can use with glasses that really pulls in distant objects (usually birds) and shows their detail clearly better than the Noctivid 8x, which is my default go-to binocular. It will have to be good to keep up with the Noctivid let alone beat it. I also want it to have the absolute minimum CA because I will often be looking at things that generate it e.g. the moon or solitary birds against the sky. This was the main reason I chose the Oberwerk and Meopta because they both have a reputation for excellent CA performance, unlike many 12x50s including perhaps the otherwise excellent Swaro EL in my brief experience and the opinion of some others here. I also want good glare performance in tricky lighting situations e.g. against the sun or under a bright overcast sky.
Originally I did not think I would need a fast focuser because I assumed the objects of interest would not be moving fast towards or away from me, and so I took a slight risk and ordered the Oberwerk 12x50 SE from oberwerk.eu only on the basis of the reports of others. This turned out to be optically very good: bright, very little CA, a neutral colour balance and sharp almost to the edge (though not a very wide FOV it has to be said). Perhaps not quite as sharp or contrasty as the very best but close and with that 'natural transparency' that I believe only comes with porro or AK prisms. However, I soon realised that following birds in flight was quite possible with a 12x50 but difficult with the stiff and slow focuser on the Oberwerk. Unfortunately, only 3 months after buying it, the focuser on the Obie has also developed flat spots (sometimes slipping altogether) and the diopter seems to be going out of adjustment constantly, and so I am now in the process of returning it for a refund because it doesn't seem like it will last very long mechanically. This is a shame as it presents a lovely image, especially at the price. I'm sure a good example will satisfy many people.
So then I bought the Meostar on sale or return. Comparing colour to the Noctivid 8x (my reference for accuracy) I see a very similar balance with plenty of red present but perhaps with a bit less blue/violet and a very slight amber tinge. I'm not expecting anything to compete with the Noctivid though - especially in a 12x - so that is fine. Anyway, if I had to choose I would prefer 'warmer than neutral' to the alternative of 'cooler than neutral' which is how ELs and NLs always leave me feeling. The EL 12x50 is probably the only real competitor that can be comfortably used with glasses in terms of image quality and with better eye relief, but as several people here have said it may also be less sharp in the centre and almost certainly shows more CA and glare, so that puts me off especially at the much higher price. If I was doing more serious astronomy then I would look at the EL option more closely though because of the wide and flat field, but for me it's secondary to nature observation and birdwatching where my attention is usually right in the centre. Stars and planets look great in the Meostar actually, we had some very dark (and cold) nights recently and I saw both the Andromeda galaxy and Saturn's largest moon Titan for the first time. Apparently the latter is not usually expected to be feasible with a 12x, but there it was.
Current honest thoughts after trying the Meostar in many different conditions for a while are: they are very sharp indeed in the centre for a 12x and with almost no CA even in challenging conditions, the focuser is well-geared and smooth, and they handle potentially glare-inducing light very well. They also feel very solidly built. Colour balance is very nice if a tiny bit warm (slight amber/gold tint) and perhaps lacking some blue. Despite the sharpness and contrast, the view is relaxing and subtle in a way that is difficult to describe. If you look right at the edges of the FOV you start to see distortion as well as focus blurring, but for a 12x mostly being used for long range nature observation and bird ID that is not really an issue for me at all as I am concentrating in the centre 70% which is all sharp. For astronomers who want a completely flat field it might be more of an issue. They are not the brightest optic at dusk, but not far off the NV. The ER could be better with glasses but I have tried my own hack based upon HenRun's excellent idea and this gives 1-1.5mm extra over the supplied eye cups, which is enough and in fact even lets me get too close with my smallest glasses so that I can start getting some kidney bean/blackouts if I push against the glasses too hard, so the flexibility is there if necessary.
So I have decided to keep the Meopta Meostar B1+ 12x50 HD! The combination of excellent image qualities that suit my preferences, good focuser and very solid build backed with a 30 year warranty are too good to give up, even with the marginal eye relief using glasses and the less than top level brightness. I strongly recommend it to others who have similar needs to my own.
