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Advice on a good 12x50+ that won't break the bank (1 Viewer)

Thanks for the nice report.

Actually the Andromeda galaxy is easy to see with unaided eyes.

I have seen it close to Piccadilly circus coming out of an astronomy meeting.
Some others could see it, some couldn't.

In a dark sky it is obvious to most people.

It is about magnitude 3.5 and 5 degrees of length has been seen in a 7x50 binocular in Belgium, but before light pollution was a problem.

I have seen Titan in a 10x25 binocular in town with a lot of light pollution.
At elongation it should be easy in a 12x50, especially now that Saturn's rings are closing.
It is magnitude 8.4 at opposition.

Try M33.
I have seen it frequently with unaided eyes in a dark sky.
Usually with averted vision although on La Palma at 7,800ft I saw it easily with direct vision.

Enjoy your binocular.

Regards,
B.
 
Thanks for the nice report.

Actually the Andromeda galaxy is easy to see with unaided eyes.

I have seen it close to Piccadilly circus coming out of an astronomy meeting.
Some others could see it, some couldn't.

In a dark sky it is obvious to most people.

It is about magnitude 3.5 and 5 degrees of length has been seen in a 7x50 binocular in Belgium, but before light pollution was a problem.

I have seen Titan in a 10x25 binocular in town with a lot of light pollution.
At elongation it should be easy in a 12x50, especially now that Saturn's rings are closing.
It is magnitude 8.4 at opposition.

Try M33.
I have seen it frequently with unaided eyes in a dark sky.
Usually with averted vision although on La Palma at 7,800ft I saw it easily with direct vision.

Enjoy your binocular.

Regards,
B.

Thanks. Admittedly I hadn't looked for Andromeda before because I'm a relative newbie to astronomy. A nighttime photographer I met at the beach as I was leaving for the day was just setting up his equipment and told me where to look for it. It was pretty faint even in the 12x, but clearly there.

There was a discussion on Cloudy Nights about the feasibility of seeing Titan with binoculars. Some said 15x was required, someone else claimed to have seen it with an 11x but others were skeptical. I saw it before reading this discussion and originally wondered if it was a star but moons (like those around Jupiter) have a different quality to my eyes.
 
I have seen Titan in a 10x25 binocular in town with a lot of light pollution.

There was a discussion on Cloudy Nights about the feasibility of seeing Titan with binoculars.
Somewhat separate from your discussions, but I’ve just recently been surprised to find how many stars make themselves readily visible through my 10x25 Ultravid and it may become a nightly addiction at this rate.
 
I was a Saturn section active member of the national Association.

The main thing about Saturn's and indeed Jupiter's moons is the distance from the planet.

In addition Saturn has rings, so it is the distance from the rings.
It would not surprise me if Rhea, the next Saturn moon is visible when the rings are edge on with a 12x50.
About magnitude 9.8.

In fact Jupiter's moons are visible to some children without optical aid.
Indeed, Paul Doherty saw them without optical aid in middle age, and I would expect most young aboriginal Australians to do the same.

Some of the discussions I see on CN are in my opinion of questionable validity.

I would go with ALPO in the US rather than them.

It needs good eyesight regarding faintest star visible and good visual acuity.
And very little glare in the eyes.
Also a dark transparent sky.

With telescopes, I sometimes used an occulting bar to see faint objects near bright objects, but have not done this with binoculars.

With double stars variable cloud, acting as a filter, is very useful to see close doubles and get the star brightness exactly right.
Twilight can also be used.

It probably took me fifteen years to perfect observing techniques from starting as a schoolboy.

Regards,
B.
 
Enjoy the Meopta, it is still an unknown glass manufacturer to many, (at Hawk watch recently the 10 or so viewers never heard of it) but a premium glass none the less.

With the sharpness at 12x, ability to hand hold for birds in flight, lack of CA and fast focuser, I would think the Meostar would be perfect for a Hawk watch. Watching raptors is one of my main applications.
 
Enjoyed reading your observations hopster - glad to have someone contributing who actually birds!

If the "SE" really is good enough optically to be mentioned in the same conversation as Meopta, Kunming, or whoever makes it, could be on a winner if they put the same optics into a higher quality body (as they certainly have the capability to do). The "SE" is at present an €320 (list price) binocular. I wonder what sort of improvement you would get mechanicals wise if priced at say €500/600 - maybe Holger would know! That's a fairly large increase, but then the Nikon 10x35 EII now costs £750 plus in the UK, so even £600 list price would be a step below that.

My view on focus speed on 12x50 binoculars is the opposite to yours, in that I would much rather slower than fast. The focuser on my own 12x50B, an old Nobilem Spezial, is much too fast (and light) for my taste. At that high magnification I find a fast focuser makes it too easy to overshoot, especially on distant targets (for that binocular, close is anything nearer than 1km) - I would much prefer a slower, stiffer focuser that lets me carefully dial in the perfect amount of focus and if I need to change it, will make those changes in small increments rather than big jumps. But everyone has different requirements and preferences, etc.
 
Enjoyed reading your observations hopster - glad to have someone contributing who actually birds!

If the "SE" really is good enough optically to be mentioned in the same conversation as Meopta, Kunming, or whoever makes it, could be on a winner if they put the same optics into a higher quality body (as they certainly have the capability to do). The "SE" is at present an €320 (list price) binocular. I wonder what sort of improvement you would get mechanicals wise if priced at say €500/600 - maybe Holger would know! That's a fairly large increase, but then the Nikon 10x35 EII now costs £750 plus in the UK, so even £600 list price would be a step below that.

My view on focus speed on 12x50 binoculars is the opposite to yours, in that I would much rather slower than fast. The focuser on my own 12x50B, an old Nobilem Spezial, is much too fast (and light) for my taste. At that high magnification I find a fast focuser makes it too easy to overshoot, especially on distant targets (for that binocular, close is anything nearer than 1km) - I would much prefer a slower, stiffer focuser that lets me carefully dial in the perfect amount of focus and if I need to change it, will make those changes in small increments rather than big jumps. But everyone has different requirements and preferences, etc.

I don't think I would want a faster focuser than the Meopta because of the danger of overshoot that you describe in a 12x, but it works well for me and means that I can change focus distance for a moving target or go from close to far for different targets quite intuitively. I find the focuser on the Swaro SLC/Kahles Helia S too slow, for example. The Obie focuser was much slower but on a tripod for static targets that is perfect. It's a shame that the focuser and diopter setting started to become problematic.
 
So an update and final decision! Also thanks to those I have messaged here privately for their opinions because they had experience of some of the optics that I was considering:

HenRun (in particular)

Lewis

Rg548

dries1

looksharp65

FredrikJerner

Samolot


I hope I didn't forget anybody!

I have now investigated the options and had extended trials of the two best that I could get my hands on within budget and which appeared to match my requirements. These were the Oberwerk 12x50 SE porro and the Meopta Meostar B1+ 12x50 HD roof.

Just to reiterate what my need is: something that I can use with glasses that really pulls in distant objects (usually birds) and shows their detail clearly better than the Noctivid 8x, which is my default go-to binocular. It will have to be good to keep up with the Noctivid let alone beat it. I also want it to have the absolute minimum CA because I will often be looking at things that generate it e.g. the moon or solitary birds against the sky. This was the main reason I chose the Oberwerk and Meopta because they both have a reputation for excellent CA performance, unlike many 12x50s including perhaps the otherwise excellent Swaro EL in my brief experience and the opinion of some others here. I also want good glare performance in tricky lighting situations e.g. against the sun or under a bright overcast sky.

Originally I did not think I would need a fast focuser because I assumed the objects of interest would not be moving fast towards or away from me, and so I took a slight risk and ordered the Oberwerk 12x50 SE from oberwerk.eu only on the basis of the reports of others. This turned out to be optically very good: bright, very little CA, a neutral colour balance and sharp almost to the edge (though not a very wide FOV it has to be said). Perhaps not quite as sharp or contrasty as the very best but close and with that 'natural transparency' that I believe only comes with porro or AK prisms. However, I soon realised that following birds in flight was quite possible with a 12x50 but difficult with the stiff and slow focuser on the Oberwerk. Unfortunately, only 3 months after buying it, the focuser on the Obie has also developed flat spots (sometimes slipping altogether) and the diopter seems to be going out of adjustment constantly, and so I am now in the process of returning it for a refund because it doesn't seem like it will last very long mechanically. This is a shame as it presents a lovely image, especially at the price. I'm sure a good example will satisfy many people.

So then I bought the Meostar on sale or return. Comparing colour to the Noctivid 8x (my reference for accuracy) I see a very similar balance with plenty of red present but perhaps with a bit less blue/violet and a very slight amber tinge. I'm not expecting anything to compete with the Noctivid though - especially in a 12x - so that is fine. Anyway, if I had to choose I would prefer 'warmer than neutral' to the alternative of 'cooler than neutral' which is how ELs and NLs always leave me feeling. The EL 12x50 is probably the only real competitor that can be comfortably used with glasses in terms of image quality and with better eye relief, but as several people here have said it may also be less sharp in the centre and almost certainly shows more CA and glare, so that puts me off especially at the much higher price. If I was doing more serious astronomy then I would look at the EL option more closely though because of the wide and flat field, but for me it's secondary to nature observation and birdwatching where my attention is usually right in the centre. Stars and planets look great in the Meostar actually, we had some very dark (and cold) nights recently and I saw both the Andromeda galaxy and Saturn's largest moon Titan for the first time. Apparently the latter is not usually expected to be feasible with a 12x, but there it was.

Current honest thoughts after trying the Meostar in many different conditions for a while are: they are very sharp indeed in the centre for a 12x and with almost no CA even in challenging conditions, the focuser is well-geared and smooth, and they handle potentially glare-inducing light very well. They also feel very solidly built. Colour balance is very nice if a tiny bit warm (slight amber/gold tint) and perhaps lacking some blue. Despite the sharpness and contrast, the view is relaxing and subtle in a way that is difficult to describe. If you look right at the edges of the FOV you start to see distortion as well as focus blurring, but for a 12x mostly being used for long range nature observation and bird ID that is not really an issue for me at all as I am concentrating in the centre 70% which is all sharp. For astronomers who want a completely flat field it might be more of an issue. They are not the brightest optic at dusk, but not far off the NV. The ER could be better with glasses but I have tried my own hack based upon HenRun's excellent idea and this gives 1-1.5mm extra over the supplied eye cups, which is enough and in fact even lets me get too close with my smallest glasses so that I can start getting some kidney bean/blackouts if I push against the glasses too hard, so the flexibility is there if necessary.

So I have decided to keep the Meopta Meostar B1+ 12x50 HD! The combination of excellent image qualities that suit my preferences, good focuser and very solid build backed with a 30 year warranty are too good to give up, even with the marginal eye relief using glasses and the less than top level brightness. I strongly recommend it to others who have similar needs to my own.
Hi again!
Interesting review and comparison, thanks! I have used my Meostar B1 10x42hd for two months now and I'm definitely pleased with its optical performance. Best wishes/ FJ
 
For astro use I bought the Pentax 20x60 binocular that cost me $216. For use on a tripod they work quite well.

For birding with a tripod the Steiner 15x56 are excellent and selling at B&H for $859. The built-in side shields at very nice to have without having to add them to the binocular. I found the barrels with their raised rib not comfortable in my hands and so I returned them to B&H.
 
Thx for you review, and I am also curious in hearing more about your experience with the Oberwerk 12x50 SE. You mentioned that you were initially impressed with its optical performance, but that you ultimately returned it due to its mechanical issues. Could you please say on what went wrong with the focuser and diopter? I'm curious to know if these problems are common with Oberwerk binoculars.

I cannot say if it is common, only give my personal experience with a sample size of one.

The focuser was always stiff and slow but that is inevitable with a waterproof porro because of the necessary seals. It was easier than the Swaro Habichts because the focus wheel is bigger and grippier. I always had a sense that the diopter setting was a little variable because when I set it carefully at one distance and then moved around to look at different things at other distances it seemed to need resetting sometimes.

The first time I used it on a wet day (~2.5 months after buying it and using it regularly), the focuser started to slip and/or lag at certain distances. This was a bit of a shock as it came out of the blue, and I'm not sure if the wet day was a coincidence or part of the cause. Later when it had dried, it no longer slipped but had a consistent flat spot at one focus distance (~500m).

When I first bought it, one of the eyepiece lenses had been slightly loose in its mounting so it moved from side to side when being cleaned. Not by much, but it shouldn't move at all from the point of view of image quality, and I was also concerned about the effect on waterproofing this must have. I had some discussion with Oberwerk about this and they were happy to correct it but it meant hassle i.e. being sent back to Italy, avoiding extra customs charges etc and other things in my life got in the way (i.e. surgery) so I didn't worry about it as the image did not seem to be affected.

After the focus issue I decided that evidence had accumulated that the mechanical reliability of this example was not going to be good enough for a long-term companion likely to be taken on travels to faraway places, and so it was with regret that I returned it for a refund. When cleaning it I noticed that the other eyepiece lens had now become loose in its mounting as well. I also felt that the diopter variability was perhaps getting worse too.

Oberwerk tried to help and did not complain about the refund so I must give them credit.

My overall perspective is that it is unbeatable for image quality in a 12x50 at ~£300. However, I have question marks about mechanical design/material selection/QC. If these were improved/solved it would be a very solid recommendation, especially if you don't need a fast focus.


And another little question - how does the Meopta's image quality compare to your Noctivid 8x?

Difficult to exactly compare because of the difference in mag and size but I would say a well matched pair. I can go from one to the other without any real adjustment needed. Colour balance is a touch warmer on the Meostar - slightly amber/gold by comparison, but not by much, certainly not the yellow cast described in some of the early Meostars. The edge of the field curves earlier and more in the Meostar but it also has less lateral CA. NV is brighter and more obviously razor sharp and contrasty in the centre. Some have compared the Meostars to Leica UVs and I can see why.
 
Hopster; A shame you had to send it back as it sounds the fix would have been straightforward for a person that's worked on classic porros over the years. The clamp screw that binds the 2 eyepieces and arms together to the focus mechanism sounds loose and that 's fairly easy to deal with- as to warranty, I realize that's something the people count on, but I'd be just as happy to do the repair myself and accept the fact that I'd be on my own after that. Regards, Pat
 
The real shame is that the mechanical bits of the "SE" (which let's not forget was a brand new, factory fresh example) are so far inferior to what appear to be pretty decent optics. A traditional open bridge porro prism binocular is not the most complex device to make. The Japanese manufacturers were able to make binoculars with sound mechanicals in the 1950s and without a doubt PRC industry is well ahead of that. I've used the PRC version of the traditional 8x30 porro and thought it seemed decently well-made, as the APMs and other PRC-made products appear to be. "Oberwerk" really ought to aim for mechanical quality of at least that standard - I can't see how a binocular with good optics but build quality at the level hopster describes helps their brand (or rather, re-brand).
 
The real shame is that the mechanical bits of the "SE" (which let's not forget was a brand new, factory fresh example) are so far inferior to what appear to be pretty decent optics. A traditional open bridge porro prism binocular is not the most complex device to make. The Japanese manufacturers were able to make binoculars with sound mechanicals in the 1950s and without a doubt PRC industry is well ahead of that. I've used the PRC version of the traditional 8x30 porro and thought it seemed decently well-made, as the APMs and other PRC-made products appear to be. "Oberwerk" really ought to aim for mechanical quality of at least that standard - I can't see how a binocular with good optics but build quality at the level hopster describes helps their brand (or rather, re-brand).

Perhaps I got an unlucky example? When I first handled it I thought how solid it felt, but that doesn't tell you what materials and tolerances are happening under the skin of course.
 
In the case of those Obie binos- I'd wager the clamp screw - it's either tightened down, then a setscew locks it in place- either the setscrew was insufficiently tightened which allowed the clamp screw to turn and the arms started to flex a mite because of the looser tolerance. They alternatively could be using a thread locker liquid and missed that step- the constant adjust of the Bino's open and closing the IPD can work that clamp screw causing it to loosen. Pat
 
In the case of those Obie binos- I'd wager the clamp screw - it's either tightened down, then a setscew locks it in place- either the setscrew was insufficiently tightened which allowed the clamp screw to turn and the arms started to flex a mite because of the looser tolerance. They alternatively could be using a thread locker liquid and missed that step- the constant adjust of the Bino's open and closing the IPD can work that clamp screw causing it to loosen. Pat

It would make a lot of sense for Oberwerk to have an engineer in the UK so that everything doesn't have to be sent back to Italy which is now so much more complicated post-Brexit. I did suggest this but they said they wanted it back.
 
For less than $300 what can one expect, surely it is not built like a Nikon SE. Yeah, I only paid $300 for these great glass, however after using it the focus has slop, eye cups do not stay in place, etc. One truly gets what they pay for.
 
For less than $300 what can one expect, surely it is not built like a Nikon SE. Yeah, I only paid $300 for these great glass, however after using it the focus has slop, eye cups do not stay in place, etc. One truly gets what they pay for.
Especially in optics.
 
I have the Obie and the focuser is a bit stiff. I haven't used it in wet weather, since I do mostly astronomy that isn't an issue for me. However, the glass itself is great. Spent some time looking at the moon thru them and it was wonderful.
 

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