Apparent Eastern Jackdaw, Courtmacsherry, Cork, Ireland (1 Viewer)

[Ronayne88]

Hey,

Just want to see what people make of this jackdaw taken today at Courtmacsherry, Cork, Ireland. Would love to know more about these birds. I know there are a number of subspecies which show this collar and other traits. Any suggestions as to where this may have come from?

All the best,

Seán R.:t:

More pics here http://www.flickr.com/photos/30446442@N05/sets/72157609013773060/

 

[cjay]

Skins looked at at Tring threw doubt on this field character on birds seen in coastal Suffolk. I am not sure what the status is on accepted "Nordic" Jackdaws elsewhere

 

[JANJ]

Seán -

check this one out:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=100860&highlight=jackdaw

JanJ

 

[pianoman]

If this one isn't either C.M.Monedula or soemmerringii then I for one have zero chance of spotting the real thing!

 

[Ronayne88]

JanJ,

Thanks for that thread. I found some interesting stuff in there. I looked at the abstract for that french paper and found a way to translate the page by right clicking, then choosing "page info" then "translate to english". I know this is impossible to know for sure, but the collar on my bird looks very similar to the diagram they use to represent the polish intergrade. I actually had another Eastern type today with a much more subtle collar around the neck but didn't get the time to take a better look. It's very interesting to see how far they've come. I wonder why they do it... They never really turn up in Summer do they?

 

[Steve Lister]

Don't know about Ireland but soemmerringii is not on the British list, monedula is and is probably very under-recorded in winter. A few are now being claimed in Leics each year.

Steve

 

[Autobob]

There's a good identification article in Birding World volume 13 number 7 by Andrew Harrop (of the BOURC). His conclusion is that Nordic Jackdaw may be occurring regularly, and it is easy enough to pick out eastern birds, but it is difficult to be certain of where they came from. Apparently a very black body, very pale hood and pure white half-collars are good clues, but how to eliminate intergrades or throwbacks? Soemmerringii-like birds do appear in intergrade populations, and seem to appear too often in UK to be the real thing?
Bob

 

[Jos Stratford]

It might be of interest to people to realise how migratory are the corvids here in eastern Europe - though good numbers do stay for the winter, especially in the city, large numbers of Rooks and Jackdawas do migrate out, probably a large proportion of the total population. On some days in October, streams of them can be seen southward bound

 

[J Jones]

Don't know about Ireland but soemmerringii is not on the British list, monedula is and is probably very under-recorded in winter. A few are now being claimed in Leics each year.

Indeed; of course it doesnt help that many people don't bother sifting through corvids. I spent time going through the thousands that winter in the area of my Lincolnshire patch and had double figure counts of monedula-type birds, with others that fitter more of an intergrade-type appearance.

Some monedulas are really rather stunning, big pale collars and nicely mottled mantle and underparts.

Here's a photo by Will Bowell of a bird seen locally to us last winter:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_7E6C7Pb1xTs/R3KMwrPAXBI/AAAAAAAAAe8/hZiuU7f9n_g/s1600-h/IMG_8221_blogf1.jpg

 

[pianoman]

Is it possible for the western race to have this light a collar? I know they're very variable.

 

[Ronayne88]

Well as far as i'm aware, the further East you go the more pronounced the white collar becomes, which would mean our Westerns would have no collar whatsoever. But, I think that our Westerns can appear to show such a collar with wear. It's all very confusing to be honest. Up until recently I wasnt even aware of the term "Nordic" jackdaw as opposed to Eastern jackdaw, and even still don't quite know if eastern and nordic mean the same thing. Then there is russian jackdaw, polish intergrade, dutch intergrade, etc... It seems I know even less now than I did before I enquired

But in my opinion (I could be totally wrong) this bird looks like a polish intergrade based on the lack of mottling below (plain dark pattern) and the striking white collar which appears to become less pronounced towards one end. I came to this conclusion through the french site which a few people recomended. Of course I cant know for sure, but i'd like to get a relative grip or understanding of it all.

The thing that throws me completely off is the dutch article whcih shows a bird very similar to mine which they call a Monedula. And the other thing... they call some of these "eastern/nordic(?)" jackdaws Monedula... Isn't that the scientific name for OUR Western Jackdaws? I'd love if someone could help clear some of this up for me. Thanks for all the input so far.

All the best,

Seán R.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Then there is polish intergrade, etc... It seems I know even less now than I did before I enquired

But in my opinion (I could be totally wrong) this bird looks like a polish intergrade based on the lack of mottling below (plain dark pattern) and the striking white collar which appears to become less pronounced towards one end.

I live in eastern Lithuania, further north-east than Poland, Jackdaws here do not have striking white collars as in the pictured one, I can't recall the same from Poland either. I will try to find some shots I have local Jackdaws.

I have to wonder, is it not possible that the bird in Ireland is not just an individual variation?

 

[J Jones]

And the other thing... they call some of these "eastern/nordic(?)" jackdaws Monedula... Isn't that the scientific name for OUR Western Jackdaws? I'd love if someone could help clear some of this up for me. Thanks for all the input so far.

Hi Sean

'our' Jackdaws, are Corvus monedula spermologus
Nordic is Corvus monedula monedula
Eastern/Russian is Corvus monedula soemmerringii

Josh

 

[Ronayne88]

That makes a lot more sense,Thanks

 

[Jos Stratford]

Had a look at a few Jackdaws today, admittedly in the rain. A certain amount of variation, none with collars quite as prominent as yours, but not a million miles from it. Attached pictures of two birds basically at the opposite end of the spectrum of birds on show, (note the second is reasonably similar to yours). Many of these are migratory.

 

[J Jones]

I suspect the first bird in Jos' pics is 1CY due to a lack of a pronounced collar, but both appear mottled so consistent with the monedula/soemmerringii diagnosis.

 

[phil baber]

I've been to Poland six times now, and this bird is a ringer for a Polish jackdaw. They are quite distinctive, looking just like the bird in your photo, and a common city bird there also.Hope this doesn't add to your confusion, but for me this is a Kawka (pron. Kav - ka, Polish for Jackdaw, but also the surname of a celebrated Czech author!) Franz Jackdaw (no wonder he was so miserable!)

 

[teunissen]

A nice article about this:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/monedula.htm

 

[Xenospiza]

With the lack of pale cheeks, it looks most like a monedula with a well-developed neck patch. I've never seen such a large pale patch in summer birds in the Netherlands, but in winter I'd usually find a few.

 

[Jos Stratford]

I've been to Poland six times now, and this bird is a ringer for a Polish jackdaw.

I'm slightly inclined to disagree - at first glance at the picture of the Irish bird, my thoughts were how strictly the collar was, more prominent than the birds in this part of eastern Europe, but as Xenospiza has said, birds in this area tend to have much paler cheeks than the Irish bird, thus giving the appearance that the collar is not so prominent (see attached photos in my previous post)