Are our fellow European birders better than UK birders. (2 Viewers)

[deborah4]

Does that imply, therefore, that people who bird regularly in regions with greater numbers of species, become "better" birders, faster?

Good question. Guess it depends on what we mean by ''good birder''. If it matters (to some it's irrelevant to their enjoyment I suspect) one can gain great knowledge about a species and it's particular habits, excellent field craft that includes ability to find them over a wide and difficult area to bird, ie. by developing an innate sense of predictability for finding them, habitat awareness, sensitivity to bird welfare, observation skills, ability to ID from great distance by Gizz, simply by watching the same 20 species of birds year in year out IMV, depending on your attitude to birding. You could have none/few of those skills, yet have 350 birds on your year list by relying on help from more experienced birders who've found/ID'd birds for you, being in an area with a high diversity, having access to pagers, mobile alerts, lots of free time, money, fast mobility etc. If you expand your area, from those 20 birds, to an area with 40, for arguments sake, then of course, the more familiar you are with your original 20, the easier it will be to distinguish new species from those you are already familiar with, and having the foundational skills already in place, to make 'experience' an exponential learning curve. That's my take on it ... others I'm sure will see things very differently, they often do

 

[Jos Stratford]

Most of the top european birders i would say are Dutch,Scandnaivian,Finnish i have meet some excellent Spanish,Bulgarian,Hungarian,French birders also some excellent Russia birders

Come on, give us an estimate - how many Brits in your fabled top 20.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Most of the top european birders i would say are Dutch,Scandnaivian,Finnish i have meet some excellent Spanish,Bulgarian,Hungarian,French birders also some excellent Russia birders.The Oliver T Warbler which was found on Shetland was id by Killian Mullarney and Hadoram Shirihai ,Shetland birders sent pics of the bird.If you include Israel in Europe there are some excellent Israeli birders

Maybe it's just Sunderland that got dud birders? Seems the whole of Europe, Britain included, is well-stocked. Poor Rockerman, living amongst the dregs of the birding society :-O

 

[rokermartin]

Maybe it's just Sunderland that got dud birders? Seems the whole of Europe, Britain included, is well-stocked. Poor Rockerman, living amongst the dregs of the birding society :-O[/QUOTE We have some good birders living in the Northeast,especially in Durham,Tyne and Wear and Northumberland,two Northumberland birders have been on the BBRC rare bird committee one was Chairman for a while.

 

[rokermartin]

Many of the id papers and field guides are done by foreign birders for eg Birds of Britain and Europe was a best seller by Lars Jonsson,Raptors of Europe and the Middle East by Dick Forman another best seller and many more .Also the first TB Greenish Warbler on Scilly Lars Jonsson helped to id with Killian Mullarney and a UK birder Peter Grant.

 

[Isurus]

Surely the only fair way to settle this is to put a British team on the Shetlands (which we know gets more/better rarities) and a ROTW team on the Scillies (which we know is now rubbish) and if they get more rares than the brits we'll easily be able to see their superiority.

 

[rokermartin]

Surely the only fair way to settle this is to put a British team on the Shetlands (which we know gets more/better rarities) and a ROTW team on the Scillies (which we know is now rubbish) and if they get more rares than the brits we'll easily be able to see their superiority.

Not really just talking about finding rarities i am saying lot of foreign birders have better skills in id better knowlege of bird behavior and fieldcraft to birders in the UK.

 

[rokermartin]

Come on, give us an estimate - how many Brits in your fabled top 20.[/QUOTE.Well off the top of my head i would say their would be 8 or 9 exceptional UK birders in the top 20,By meaning exceptional i dont mean just exceptional in finding rarities or id them.I mean exceptional all round ornithologist,who know everything there is to know about bird behavior,fieldcraft,id,bird calls and song.

 

[James Lowther]

Surely the only fair way to settle this is to put a British team on the Shetlands (which we know gets more/better rarities) and a ROTW team on the Scillies (which we know is now rubbish) and if they get more rares than the brits we'll easily be able to see their superiority.

tee hee

i think rokermartin is forgetting that there are far more "foreigners" than british people. "8 or 9" brits in the european "top 20" is over representation by any standard and hardly suggests the sort of "stats" that would in normal circumstances provoke a "euro birders better than brits" theory.

imagine how delighted we would be if we could say the same about our footballers.

mind you i bet the average joe bloggs in brazil isn't as good as steven gerrard, so why not suggest that

"brazilian footballers are lagging behind their english counterparts!!!"

 

[rosbifs]

I think impressions may well be skewed by the fact that abroad you would employ a guide whereas on the home patch you wouldn't. Generally, you would expect the guide to be good otherwise he shouldn't be doing the job.
Also depends on your expectations. In Finland the cover is immense and birders have to rely on more than just a 'good view' to make the id.
Also sometimes getting a group (whether you're leading or not) to see the same bird can be difficult enough let alone agree on an id! There will always be those that have caught the bird in a slightly different light or angle.

However, to answer the question I would agree with nick above in that european birders have to work harder and have to rely more on their own judgement than uk. Therefore the europeans tip it for me.

 

[rokermartin]

tee hee

i think rokermartin is forgetting that there are far more "foreigners" than british people. "8 or 9" brits in the european "top 20" is over representation by any standard and hardly suggests the sort of "stats" that would in normal circumstances provoke a "euro birders better than brits" theory.

imagine how delighted we would be if we could say the same about our footballers.

mind you i bet the average joe bloggs in brazil isn't as good as steven gerrard, so why not suggest that

"brazilian footballers are lagging behind their english counterparts!!!"

Hi yes we are certainly right there are more foreigners that brits.But i would say birding is more popular in the UK than the rest europe.And i think we have the most birders in the UK.But seems as if birding is becoming more popular now in a few more europen countries especially in Holland where the numbers of birders is increasing every year.There are quite few Finnish,Swedish and Dannish birders.Many foreign birders who i have birded with are amazed about the big crowds of twitchers we have in the UK when a rare bird turns up,they are not used to seeing big twitchers.Most european birders dont twitch that is why they are so good at there fieldcraft and all round birding knowledge.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Well off the top of my head i would say their would be 8 or 9 exceptional UK birders in the top 20.

By meaning exceptional i dont mean just exceptional in finding rarities or id them.I mean exceptional all round ornithologist,who know everything there is to know about bird behavior,fieldcraft,id,bird calls and song.

By your numbers, you flaw your own arguments

British population - 59 million

European population - 730 million
(E.U. population - 490 million)

So, you say 8 or 9 of Europe's top twenty are from the UK, that equals 40-45%. British population is 8% of the European total.

So, by your numbers, 8% of the European population is producing 40-45% of the top birders, that is pretty good by any reckoning!


Or, to put it another way, again by your numbers, there is one top 20 European birder in the UK for every 6.9 million persons. In Europe as a whole, it takes 63.5 million persons to produce one top 20 quality birder.

 

[rokermartin]

By your numbers, you flaw your own arguments

British population - 59 million

European population - 730 million
(E.U. population - 490 million)

So, you say 8 or 9 of Europe's top twenty are from the UK, that equals 40-45%. British population is 8% of the European total.

So, by your numbers, 8% of the European population is producing 40-45% of the top birders, that is pretty good by any reckoning!


Or, to put it another way, again by your numbers, there is one top 20 European birder in the UK for every 6.9 million persons. In Europe as a whole, it takes 63.5 million persons to produce one top 20 quality birder!


Your theory is hereby rejected as tosh, which of course it always was.

Well its just my opinion i think there would be 8 or 9 UK birders in the top 20 the rest foreign.Most of the id papers and top field guides are done by foreign birders,Some of our rare birds which have been found in the UK have been id by foreign birders as i mentioned earlier Oliver T Warbler was id by Killean Mullarney a Irish birder and Hadoram Shirihai a Israeli birder.When Hugh Harrop sent pics off ,also Lars Jonnson helped to id the first TB Greenish Warbler on Scilly in 1987.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Most of the top field guides are done by foreign birders.

Given that most persons in the world are actually foreigners, then it is hardly a surprise that most fieldguides are done by them. However, you overlook the minor point that many of the leading field guides are actually done by British birders.

Let's take a little wander round the globe - India, Nepal, Bhutan, Burma, Sri Lanka, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi, South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique, Seychelles, Antarctic Islands, Botswana, Mexico, Guatemala, Belize ...bored now, but list could go on. Guess what they have in common.

Some of our rare birds which have been found in the UK have been id by foreign birders.

And plenty of rare birds, including may firsts, for other countries have been found by Brits.


You bored these days Rokermartin? Needing another dead horse to flog?

 

[rokermartin]

Given that most persons in the world are actually foreigners, then it is hardly a surprise that most fieldguides are done by them. However, you overlook the minor point that many of the leading field guides are actually done by British birders.

Let's take a little wander round the globe - India, Nepal, Bhutan, Burma, Sri Lanka, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi, South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique, Seychelles, Antarctic Islands, Botswana, Mexico, Guatemala, Belize ...bored now, but list could go on. Guess what they have in common.




And plenty of rare birds, including may firsts, for other countries have been found by Brits.


You bored these days Rokermartin? Needing another dead horse to flog?

Well it is birdforum where people have different opinions i am certainly not bored ,and making sarcastic comments does'nt do the birdforum any good Certainly puts you in a bad light as a person and makes you look very childish and stupid you should think about that before you post things .

 

[rokermartin]

Would anyone like to say who they think are the top 5 European birders are.Or even the top 10.As i said based on all round knowledge,fieldcraft ,id skills and bird behavior.Not talking about only finding rarities and id them

 

[Steven Astley]

Its a stupid question IMHO. Somebody who writes a superb field could be deaf, have bad eyesight and slow reactions. Doesn't necessarily stop him producing a good field guide.

Top 20 birders, I would be top closely followed by Killian Mularney (based on the fact he helped produced a good book and seems to find everything in Ireland, so his eyesight must be ok)
DIM Wallace 2nd
Chairman of the BBRC committee, because all his rarities get passed by default with him being the boss.
LGRE for his comic abilities, his massive ego and his big list.
Bill Oddie (definitely not for his comic abilities) but because he makes great bird noises.


Nice to see you back Roker thought the people of Isle of Scilly might have got to to you.

 

[rokermartin]

Its a stupid question IMHO. Somebody who writes a superb field could be deaf, have bad eyesight and slow reactions. Doesn't necessarily stop him producing a good field guide.

Top 20 birders, I would be top closely followed by Killian Mularney (based on the fact he helped produced a good book and seems to find everything in Ireland, so his eyesight must be ok)
DIM Wallace 2nd
Chairman of the BBRC committee, because all his rarities get passed by default with him being the boss.
LGRE for his comic abilities, his massive ego and his big list.
Bill Oddie (definitely not for his comic abilities) but because he makes great bird noises.


Nice to see you back Roker thought the people of Isle of Scilly might have got to to you.

Hi no the Scilly Fan club have 'nt got to me i still know which is the best place to go to see rarities.,but enough of that .Killian Mularney would certainly be in my top five also number one expert on raptor id Dick Forsman and Lars Jonsson,Lars Svenson,and Hadoram Shirihai.LGRE is nowhere near as good as these experts they are in a different league from him ,he is not even in the running in my view.

 

[Grousemore]

I'm with you, roker.

Most of the UK birders who visit here wouldn't know a Robin from a Sparrow.

 

[rokermartin]

Here are the birders who i think are in the class of their own ,who i think would be in the top ten european birders in my opinion, in no particular order.killean Mularney,Dick Forman,Lars Jonsson,Lars Svenson,Hadaram Shirihai,Per Alstrom.Mark Beaman,Steve Madge,Ian Wallace,Arnold Van der Burg.