Bean Goose group (3 Viewers)

[Richard Klim]

A couple of questions:
the subspecies johanseni which is mentioned in Clements seems to have been subsumed into one of the other forms, but which? (fabilis or middendorfii)?
What are some field marks for the Middledorf's goose? The large bill has been mentioned, but how else does it differ?

Sorry Niels, my summary in post #3 was rather brief.

Dan Brown suggests: "the name 'johanseni' could be usefully retained to describe those individuals that may originate from the contact zone between A. fabalis and A. middendorffii and that are not easily assigned to either of these two taiga-breeding species".

And wrt Middendorff's Bean Goose: "It is a very large, well-proportioned goose, larger than fabalis, with a long but relatively thick-set neck, which typically lacks the snaky appearance that Taiga Bean Goose frequently exhibits: the neck appears long and smoothly curved. The head is large and can appear top-heavy for the bird, and the bill is huge, heavy and dominates the head; as well as being very long, it is noticeably deep-based. In comparison, Taiga Bean Goose sports a far more lightweight bill. The culmen is very long and straight or slightly convex, progressively tapering to a thick, but not bulbous nail. The cutting edge of the upper mandible is strongly curved, this being greatest at the base of the bill. The depth of the lower mandible at the base accounts for approximately 30% of the total bill depth at this point. The lower edge of the lower mandible is convex and seemingly bulges out beneath the bill at the chin. The whole bill accounts for 50% of the total head and bill length."
Also: "... exhibiting a narrow (normally covering 25% of the bill length or less) orange sub-terminal band. ...frequently shows a gingery wash to the plumage unlike any of the other forms. ...shows a distinct preference for wetlands, where it is often seen up-ending in shallow water or delving deep into wet mud for its food."

Richard

 

[njlarsen]

Thanks Richard!

Niels

 

[Shi Jin]

The first two are larger images of the shot I posted above (left, is Middendorff's Goose, centre is Tundra Goose, ssp serrirostris)

Thanks for the note Richard because it's set me wondering whether the goose bringing up the rear is actually one of those 'johanseni' types?? Whatever, should johanseni be classified as a ssp of Taiga Goose or Middendorff's? If it's the former, then there could well be all three species of the geese that were formerly known as bean, in the one photo ;-)

 

[Daniel Philippe]

it's set me wondering whether the goose bringing up the rear is actually one of those 'johanseni' types??

When I looked more closely at these photos this morning (I mean without a drop of Liffey !!), I could not help thinking that the first two could be a pair followed by the offspring.:eek!:

 

[Richard Klim]

The first two are larger images of the shot I posted above (left, is Middendorff's Goose, centre is Tundra Goose, ssp serrirostris)
Thanks for the note Richard because it's set me wondering whether the goose bringing up the rear is actually one of those 'johanseni' types?? Whatever, should johanseni be classified as a ssp of Taiga Goose or Middendorff's? If it's the former, then there could well be all three species of the geese that were formerly known as bean, in the one photo ;-)

Hmm, I'm no ID expert, but I suspect that it would be virtually impossible to conclusively identify 'johanseni' (even if such a 'race' truly exists) away from the fabalis/middendorffii contact zone.

Dan Brown's article emphasises that there's much individual variation in bean geese, and that it's unrealistic to expect to identify every example with certainty (even between Taiga and Tundra).

Richard

 

[Shi Jin]

Hi Richard, I think you are probably right. But, I've always been a little puzzled by the third goose (which looks not quite right for Middendorff's.

Daniel's hypothesis is an interesting one. And, would certainly set the cat among the pigeons if it were the case... Middendorff's and Tundra interbreeding and with Middendorff's as the dominant gene (hence the size).

Whatever, the "beans" are an interesting puzzle.

 

[tomjenner]

Seeing the large bill on that Middendorff's reminds me of a bird I saw last spring at some pools just outside of Ulaanbaatar in Mongolia. I would appreciate any comments on its identity. I have included a few photos, including some to show the size comparison with Swan Geese (a goose with a bill that makes even a Middendorff's feel inadequate).

Tom

 

[rockfowl]

Certainly looks good in the last shot for a Middendorff's

 

[Rob Hutchinson]

I assume this photo shows a typical A. middendorffii but don't have any good references for them so would be grateful for any comments on the I.D.

Rob

 

[Richard Klim]

I assume this photo shows a typical A. middendorffii but don't have any good references for them so would be grateful for any comments on the I.D.

Rob, in the absence of any replies from ID specialists: the bill/head proportions and profile look good for middendorffii to me, and it doesn't have the short, thick neck and chunky head typical of serrirostris.

Richard

 

[rockfowl]

Agree, another middendorffii, quite a brute that one!

 

[tomjenner]

Seeing the large bill on that Middendorff's reminds me of a bird I saw last spring at some pools just outside of Ulaanbaatar in Mongolia. I would appreciate any comments on its identity.
Tom

As a follow up to this. I learned from Martin Gilbert the other day that most of the Bean Geese he has caught and measured in Mongolia have been Middendorff's, suggesting that the bird in my photo was indeed one.

Tom

 

[Richard Klim]

Bean Goose - Salton Sea

Some interesting further discussion of the inconclusively-identified Nov 2010 Salton Sea (CA) Bean Goose on Martin Garner's blog, including mention of 'curtus' Lönnberg 1923 (type locality Shansi = Shanxi), synonymised with serrirostris by Peters 1931.
birdingfrontiers.com/2010/12/08/bean-goose-salton-sea-part-3

Richard

 

[mb1848]

Thanks Richard for the cite to Peters. Peters says in his introduction to his series of books:
“The fact that a species or subspecies is included does not necessarily mean that I am in a position to vouch for its validity; nor when a name is relegated to synonomy does it mean that form is unrecognizable.”
In Peters 1931 on page 148 he has A. f. curtus under A. serrirostris with the listing starting with a question mark. Not a strong synonomyzing.
Then in 1937 Lonnberg disagreed with Peters

Lonnberg Die kurzschnabelig Saatgans, Anser fabalis curtus Ornith Monatsber. 45 p. 73-74 May 2, 1937 The Author reaffirms his belief that A. f. curtus is a valid race. Originally described from specimens from Shansi China the Short-billed Goose is believed on evidence brought forward to be the breeding race of the Taimyr peninsula and adjacent parts of western Siberia.

Gyldenstolpe in 1926 gave an English translation of the original description of curtus which had been in Swedish. I put some of that in my comment in birding frontiers and measurements are in the original pdf.
“Sides of head much paler than crown with a well marked line of demarcation running through the eye towards the nape. Light areas on sides of head greyish brown or in the most extreme specimen an old female, becoming yellowish grey, which latter color extends alng the sides of the neck, thus becoming light brownish grey. This latter color merges toward the crop region into the whitish grey of the remaining under parts. In the collections of the R. Nat. Hist. Museum in Stockholm there are specimens of this race from both Shansi and Shensi. As type an old male from Shensi has been designated, because the Shansi specimens appear to be somewhat younger.”


http://www.nrm.se/download/18.6829c941179d68d81680002125/Gyldenstolpe+1926+Länkad.pdf .


Here is a paralectotype photo of curtus which looks a lot like the Salton Sea bird (It is from Shansi and thus a young bird according to Gyldenstolpe):
http://www.nrm.se/sv/meny/forskning...ng/icketattingar/anatidae/nrm569905.5193.html
I think the Salton Sea bird is a first winter male of either A. s. curtus or A. f. curtus. And I hope to see it soon.

 

[Richard Klim]

Interesting, Mark. The A fabalis 'complex' might be more complex than sometimes suggested.

Richard

 

[MJB]

Interesting, Mark. The A fabalis 'complex' might be more complex than sometimes suggested.

Richard

Richard,
That brings us neatly back to "Ruokonen, M, K Litvin and T Aarvak. 2008. Taxonomy of the bean goose-pink-footed goose. Mol. Phyl. Evol. 48: 554-562", since they make a strong statement about more research being needed! Also, Yelena Rogacheva notes in "The Birds of Central Asia. 1992. Husum Druck & Verlag. Husum. Germany" that in the north of the Krasnoyarsk Republic (Pyasina River), intergrades of fabalis, middendorffii & serrirostris may comprise above 15% of the population; the majority of all Krasnoyarsk populations migrate south and east, but a few (mostly in the north) migrate west and southwest.
This kind of distributional pattern and migratory behaviour could well account for the long-term existence of a small curtus population: the areas involved are vast and the density of researchers/birders is vanishingly small!
MJB

 

[Albert de Jong]

I think the identification problem of those two subspecies (middendorffii is sometimes threated as species) is quite similar to the western situation of fabalis/rossicus. Enough experience with the variation in both taxa can help a lot, also identification on group basis. The latter is the reason why solitairy bean geese are often difficult to ID.

I have an article in Japanese from 1983 which I cannot attach here. I can e-mail it if you like. I deals with the problem midd/serr. Based on the handfull pictures and figures in the article, I would say the Clayton bird is a serrirostris. Middendorffi should have a bill lenght of twice of the height.

Tori,32:95-106,1983.

ヒシクイ Anser fabalis serrirostris とオオヒシクイ
A.f.middendorfiの野外識別についての考察
呉地正行1・横田義雄2・大津真理子3
宮城県泉市南光台5-4-1;2仙台市原町1-2-31;3在オ1ランダ国
Notes on the Field Identification of Anser fabalis serrirostris
and A. f. middendorfi

Masayuki KURECHI, Yoshio YOKOTA, and Mariko OTSU
1 Nankodai 5-4-1, Izumi, Miyagi 983; 2Haranomachi 1-2-31, Sendai, Miyagi 983;
Peperstraat 7, Wijk Bij Duurstede, the Netherlands 3

In the taxanomical history of the fabalis-rossicus complex there is a lot speculated about an intergradation zone. Burgers e.a. (1991) pointed out that there is no evidence for that, based on the ring recoveries of hundreds of bean geese. Johanseni was long considered as taxa, based on Delacour (1951), but is recently unmasked by new research of the specimen he used for his suggestions (Heinicke 2009). Rochageva (1992) indeed writes about a intergradationzone, but no evidence is presented.

What I would say is that we have to be carefull with considering (new) subspecies. There is also a lot of inconsistency in the naming of the taxa since the first of all, Latham 1787 and Severtsov 1873. An overview would give us tens of names used in the past hundred years.

 

[johnallcock]

I just noticed this elsewhere on the forum: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=169459. Check post #13 by Justin Jansen.

If I read this correctly, the names for fabalis, serrirotris and middendorffii all refer to individuals which cannot be unambiguously assigned to a particular taxon. Indeed, the type for middendorffii would appear to come from outside the normal range of the taxon currently with that name (Turkestan).

Have I misunderstood something, or could there be a fairly radical (and very confusing) shake-up in nomenclature?

 

[Richard Klim]

Ruokonen & Aarvak 2011

Forthcoming...

Ruokonen & Aarvak 2011. Typology revisited: historical taxa of the bean goose – pink-footed goose complex. Ardea 99(1): 105-114.
nou.natuurinfo.nl/website/ardea/ardea_show_abstract.php?lang=uk&nr=4043

[Relevant to earlier discussion of johanseni & curtus.]

 

[Richard Klim]

pdfs

Ruokonen, M., Litvin, K., Aarvak, T., 2008. Taxonomy of the bean goose – pink-footed goose, Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution, doi: 10.1016/j.ympev.2008.04.038

Ruokonen & Aarvak 2011. Typology revisited: historical taxa of the bean goose – pink-footed goose complex. Ardea 99(1): 105-114.

• Ruokonen et al 2008
• Ruokonen & Aarvak 2011