Bearded Long Tailed (Tit) (2 Viewers)

[Feathered friend]

Could someone explain to me, why the Bearded and Long tailed so called tits aren't tits? You look at their latin names Panurus Biarmicus and Aegithalos Caudatus respectively, where as all the real Tits start with their name Parus etc. And how did we get into this odd situation?

 

[luke]

i think its only bearded tit (or what i prefer, Reedling) that not a tit. Long tailed is i think. In fact its only Great tit that goes by Parus. Blue tit is Cyanistes caeruleus.

 

[Feathered friend]

i think its only bearded tit (or what i prefer, Reedling) that not a tit. Long tailed is i think. In fact its only Great tit that goes by Parus. Blue tit is Cyanistes caeruleus.

In my Field guide (Larousse) Blue Tit is Parus as are all the other tits.

 

[Valéry Schollaert]

Well...

Bearded and Long-tailed are even other families. In short, it means they have different ancestors at some level.

Genus and families can be compared with brothers/sisters and cousins. In some way we all have same ancestors, but obviously, the last common ancestor in brothers is more recent than in cousins.

Different species in the same genus (such Marsh and Willow Tits/ Poecile palustris & Poecile montanus) have a "very recent" ancestor (in millions of years). Blue and Great Tit (Cyanistes caeruleus and Parus major) have a older ancestor than Marsh and Willow, but they all have a common ancestor more recent than thse one shared with Long-tailed, so the first for are grouped in a family.

Interestingly, birds in the same families have, in most case, similarities such all (true) tits (Family: Paridae) nesting in holes, while all birds grouped in Long-tailed Tit families (Aegithalidae) build a nest...

I hope it helps.

By the way, there is a special forum on those topics:
http://www.birdforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=505

Cheers

 

[avidbirder]

Hi all,
systematics is one thing. But why do bird species that do not really belong together (such as true tits and long-tailed tits) often share the same vernacular names? I think the simple answer is that those people (in the old times) who gave the birds their names, just acted on similarities they perceived. Long-tailed tits are small, roundish (tail excluded, of course) and very mobile, as are their cousins, the Parus species. This obviously holds true for different languages. In my language (German) long-tails and true Parus species have the same common name as well (Meise).

 

[Mike Shurmer]

In my Field guide (Larousse) Blue Tit is Parus as are all the other tits.

Up to date latin names are:

Bearded tit Panarus biarmicus
Long-tailed tit Aegithalos caudatus
Blue tit Cyanistes caeruleus
Great tit Parus major
Crested tit Lophaphanes cristatus
Coal tit Periparus ater
Willow tit Poecile montanus
Marsh tit Poecile palustris
Penduline tit Remiz pendulinus

 

[Feathered friend]

Well...

Bearded and Long-tailed are even other families. In short, it means they have different ancestors at some level.

Genus and families can be compared with brothers/sisters and cousins. In some way we all have same ancestors, but obviously, the last common ancestor in brothers is more recent than in cousins.

Different species in the same genus (such Marsh and Willow Tits/ Poecile palustris & Poecile montanus) have a "very recent" ancestor (in millions of years). Blue and Great Tit (Cyanistes caeruleus and Parus major) have a older ancestor than Marsh and Willow, but they all have a common ancestor more recent than thse one shared with Long-tailed, so the first for are grouped in a family.

Interestingly, birds in the same families have, in most case, similarities such all (true) tits (Family: Paridae) nesting in holes, while all birds grouped in Long-tailed Tit families (Aegithalidae) build a nest...

I hope it helps.

By the way, there is a special forum on those topics:
http://www.birdforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=505

Cheers

Well . . . that certainly does.
Many thanks

 

[Feathered friend]

Up to date latin names are:

Bearded tit Panarus biarmicus
Long-tailed tit Aegithalos caudatus
Blue tit Cyanistes caeruleus
Great tit Parus major
Crested tit Lophaphanes cristatus
Coal tit Periparus ater
Willow tit Poecile montanus
Marsh tit Poecile palustris
Penduline tit Remiz pendulinus

Are you saying their latin names change from time to time?
If so why?
Because I've just looked into another field guide Shell Guide to Birds (James Ferguson-Lee Ian Willis J T R Sharrock) has them all as Parus as per Larousse

 

[Apodemus]

Are you saying their latin names change from time to time?
If so why?
Because I've just looked into another field guide Shell Guide to Birds (James Ferguson-Lee Ian Willis J T R Sharrock) has them all as Parus as per Larousse

I'm afraid so. It's a pain, but as people understand more and more about the relationships between species and genuses, plants and animals that were once thought to be closely related are found not be so, requiring a change of name. It happens all the time. I think it occurs more with plants than animals though.

 

[Feathered friend]

I'm afraid so. It's a pain, but as people understand more and more about the relationships between species and genuses, plants and animals that were once thought to be closely related are found not be so, requiring a change of name. It happens all the time. I think it occurs more with plants than animals though.

Thanks for that . . .
I now have a good excuse for getting the new Collins Field Guide . . . whenever it comes available!

 

[Colin]

Up to date latin names are:

Bearded tit Panarus biarmicus
Long-tailed tit Aegithalos caudatus
Blue tit Cyanistes caeruleus
Great tit Parus major
Crested tit Lophaphanes cristatus
Coal tit Periparus ater
Willow tit Poecile montanus
Marsh tit Poecile palustris
Penduline tit Remiz pendulinus

Hi Stoned,
Genus for Bearded Tit is Panurus - prob just your typo.

 

[Colin]

Are you saying their latin names change from time to time?
If so why?
Because I've just looked into another field guide Shell Guide to Birds (James Ferguson-Lee Ian Willis J T R Sharrock) has them all as Parus as per Larousse

It is generally very rare for the species name to change but the genus is sometimes changed as per this topic.

 

[birdboybowley]

Same thing's happened with the terns too, most used to be 'sterna' - not now!

 

[njlarsen]

And gulls ...

Niels

 

[colonelboris]

If it's any help, I vaguely remember reading that they are called tits as these birds are generally small and as such the word is derived from the Norse tittr - meaning something small. People weren't so fussy back then about things like genera, not like these days...

 

[Sy V]

...I think the simple answer is that those people (in the old times) who gave the birds their names, just acted on similarities they perceived. Long-tailed tits are small, roundish (tail excluded, of course) and very mobile, as are their cousins, the Parus species. This obviously holds true for different languages. In my language (German) long-tails and true Parus species have the same common name as well (Meise).

Indeed.

And some (if not all Tits) were originally referred to as Titmouse in English.

Quoting from Wikipedia "The name titmouse is recorded from the 14th century, composed of the Old English name for the bird, mase (Proto-Germanic *maison, German Meise) and tit, denoting something small. The spelling was influenced by mouse in the 16th century."

Wikipedia

 

[Feathered friend]

Thanks everyone for all your contributions (to date). You have certainly enlightened me on something that has puzzled me for some time. I'll be visiting Birdforum far more now.