Bison introduced to (1 Viewer)

[Sangahyando]

No Roe or Muntjac?

John

I think that if something has to be introduced, (European) bison make a lot more sense in the region than plastics like Muntjac or Fallow Deer.


Anyway, the thread title is still missing a location. Would be really nice if people added those instead of going for the lazy clickbait style.

 

[Richard D]

Its not "really annoying" its storing up trouble for later when it becomes obvious to the audience they've been had. Ask Boris Johnson.

Also see the boy who cried wolf...

John

I still can't see where the Trust has been misleading - they're open about the fencing, what the aim is and why they've chosen Bison on their web site, and have been since the beginning of the project.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Hey John, me feels you're too worked up over this 🙂

They are trying out Bison as a management tool, also doing a comparative with other grazers to compare impact and benefits, seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Farnboro John]

Hey John, me feels you're too worked up over this 🙂

They are trying out Bison as a management tool, also doing a comparative with other grazers to compare impact and benefits, seems pretty reasonable to me.

Hi Jos, I do get that, but the project is being misrepresented in the media and that actually is a direct result of the project briefing and not just media hype. If we've learned one thing in the last couple of years its that people do actually care about lying and the subsequent effects are likely to be reduced belief, hence interest, hence donations, to lying organisations. Consequently I think the Trust has been making a huge mistake in (a) getting the media to report wild Bison roaming the countryside (which to the extent these are going to, the Highland Wildlife Park has been doing for years) (b) not issuing a corrective report as soon as the "misreporting" was discovered - we've seen how much damage trying to cover-up or brazen things out does in the whole sorry Johnson saga. But it's not happening, it's the same mistake and every fund-seeking conservation organisation will suffer in the end because of these lies.

Honestly, why couldn't they have just brought in Bison without telling anyone in the media anything? They could. Why didn't they? Because they wanted the attention. Big mistake.

Incidentally there's all the evidence you need of the effect of a variety of grazers in the New Forest. It's an obvious browse line that prevents any understorey almost universally and as a result birds like Wood Warblers have very limited nesting areas that are easily located, patrolled and the species extinguished by the array of small predators that are themselves uncontrolled by bigger predators (as are the grazers, and before anyone mentions deer management, lets talk pony and donkey management). Like most things in the UK it doesn't need trialling, the evidence is there. What's not there is evidence of willingness to manage it effectively.

John

 

[Sangahyando]

The problem with the latter is that people in Britain and some other parts of Europe have irrational hangups about eating horses, so pony and donkey management might prove difficult. Even if they were only turned into dog food.

 

[Stuart Goodwin]

Its not "really annoying" its storing up trouble for later when it becomes obvious to the audience they've been had. Ask Boris Johnson.

Also see the boy who cried wolf...

John

Evening.

From memory, one of the partners in this is the Wildwood Trust, which is on the edge of the Blean and they already have 2+ Bison in an enclosure. I think in the literature that they weren’t used as they are to use to humans.

I haven’t taken to much interest but I think I’ve seen talk of walks around the outside of the enclosure (I’m sure there will be a charge).

To be honest, the locals probably won’t remember the ins or outs of the release in 2 weeks. Pressure’s with all the house building and impact on the water table & pollution impacting Stodmarsh, the lower Thames Crossing threatening Ashendown Bank SSSI, the largest solar farm next to Seasalter SSSI, Canterbury Council’s plans to build a 9+ mile bypass through another SSSI & the ridiculous theme park threatening Swanscombe SSSI.

I know every county have these issues but poor wording about 4 Bison aren’t the biggest issues here in East Kent.

Regards

 

[Trinovid]

...aren't all these large ungulates going to fart methane into the atmosphere like there's no tomorrow (actually as a result there won't be a tomorrow).

Also see the boy who cried wolf...

Apparently he's been found, and still not changed.

 

[Trinovid]

The problem with the latter is that people in Britain and some other parts of Europe have irrational hangups about eating horses, so pony and donkey management might prove difficult. Even if they were only turned into dog food.

Yes, people thinking with their emotions is usually the best way to never come to terms with reality.

 

[Farnboro John]

The problem with the latter is that people in Britain and some other parts of Europe have irrational hangups about eating horses, so pony and donkey management might prove difficult. Even if they were only turned into dog food.

I've eaten Zebra in Carnivores in Nairobi, and TBH not hugely impressed (bit tough), prefer Impala or Ostrich (and, from Namibia, would exalt the taste and texture of Kudu or Gemsbok steaks). Most armies in Europe have eaten their horses down the years so it shouldn't be a problem - clearly its not a cultural problem....

Cheers

John

 

[davercox]

Sorry if this has already been said here ... There is no evidence that European bison have ever "roamed free" in Britain.
So, this is not a reintroduction as suggested by many.

I understand the purpose of the introduction, thanks, and I hope this experiment is seen as testing the effects, and doing so properly, i.e. over a substantial period of time.

 

[THE_FERN]

Sorry if this has already been said here ... There is no evidence that European bison have ever "roamed free" in Britain.
So, this is not a reintroduction as suggested by many.

I thought your first statement interesting. I immediately found this:

BOVIDAE: Bison sp. - Royal Albert Memorial Museum & Art Gallery

My understanding is the various bison are / were extremely closely related suggesting that narrowing this to species will be difficult. Nonetheless, do you agree it constitutes evidence?

 

[Loud Green Man]

Give it time and the local Travellers Gypsies will breed a larger dog and your 🦬 will go the same way as the 🦌 population in East Kent.

LGM

 

[davercox]

I thought your first statement interesting. I immediately found this:

BOVIDAE: Bison sp. - Royal Albert Memorial Museum & Art Gallery

My understanding is the various bison are / were extremely closely related suggesting that narrowing this to species will be difficult. Nonetheless, do you agree it constitutes evidence?

Yes, indeed it is. I based my remark on this month's Science, quoted by TedY in post #22 : "The European bison has never roamed the UK, and it’s debated whether its extinct relative, the steppe bison, ever made it over from the continent.", plus the admittedly not recent survey of extinct animals in Britain by Oliver Rackham in The History of the Countryside (1986).

 

[THE_FERN]

Yes, indeed it is. I based my remark on this month's Science, quoted by TedY in post #22 : "The European bison has never roamed the UK, and it’s debated whether its extinct relative, the steppe bison, ever made it over from the continent.", plus the admittedly not recent survey of extinct animals in Britain by Oliver Rackham in The History of the Countryside (1986).

This suggests steppe bison was native:

Steppe bison - Wikipedia

I'd be fairly surprised if one or the other wasn't found here given presence of other large herbivores (aurochs, Irish elk etc)

 

[Trinovid]

These types of conversations are really good at highlighting the shortsightedness of humanity in assigning perfection to the era/eras of their personal preference with the associated idealization of nature as an unchangeable thing, if not for the presence of humans.

I'm sure it would be a messy, messy thing if people could actually choose the time in the history of the planet where they thought nature, flora/fauna and all else were at their most perfect, coupled to their certainty that the future is dim, simply because they imagine it to be so.

Many mistakes have been made I suppose over the ages, and yet nature does the same as it always has, and just continues on regardless of human perspective.

 

[Mysticete]

I don't see the hysteria here. It's obviously a field trial, and if it leads to more eventually free-roaming European Bison, isn't that a good thing?

My understanding is that the remaining populations are largely restricted to a fairly small number of sites. That makes the species in the wild more vulnerable to freak events and disease. Having more populations geographically spread out is a good thing, the whole "don't put all your eggs in one basket" analogy.

 

[Farnboro John]

I don't see the hysteria here. It's obviously a field trial, and if it leads to more eventually free-roaming European Bison, isn't that a good thing?

My understanding is that the remaining populations are largely restricted to a fairly small number of sites. That makes the species in the wild more vulnerable to freak events and disease. Having more populations geographically spread out is a good thing, the whole "don't put all your eggs in one basket" analogy.

In the UK "studies" and "trials" are used as a means of delaying meaningful action, frequently in cases where successful trials elsewhere followed by full scale reintroductions have made further work unnecessary. The usual excuse is the UK I s somehow different from Europe.

In the case at hand there is already UK evidence of European Bison effects on a fenced UK landscape at the scale of this "trial", from the Highland Wildlife Park herd. Nothing to be learned, nothing intended to be learned, just an attempt to get funds by lies about reintroductions.

For conservation organisations to endorse this kind of dishonesty plays into the hands of those who are delaying e.g. beaver reintroductions at full scale across England - now long overdue - studies long completed, benefits known - while silly little fenced compounds for the amusement of the super rich are hailed as reintroductions. It's time for straight talking and elimination - public refutation by the guilty - of BS claims of free roaming Bison.

John

 

[Jos Stratford]

In the UK "studies" and "trials" are used as a means of delaying meaningful action, frequently in cases where successful trials elsewhere followed by full scale reintroductions have made further work unnecessary. The usual excuse is the UK I s somehow different from Europe.

In the case at hand there is already UK evidence of European Bison effects on a fenced UK landscape at the scale of this "trial", from the Highland Wildlife Park herd. Nothing to be learned, nothing intended to be learned, just an attempt to get funds by lies about reintroductions.

For conservation organisations to endorse this kind of dishonesty plays into the hands of those who are delaying e.g. beaver reintroductions at full scale across England - now long overdue - studies long completed, benefits known - while silly little fenced compounds for the amusement of the super rich are hailed as reintroductions. It's time for straight talking and elimination - public refutation by the guilty - of BS claims of free roaming Bison.

John

🙄

 

[THE_FERN]

Now I'm sure I read that Rhododendron ponticum used to be found here...

 

[Farnboro John]

Now I'm sure I read that Rhododendron ponticum used to be found here...

I'd understand this better if you defined "here" and "used to be found".