Boundaries of the WP in Egypt (3 Viewers)

[attila]

Hi,

Does anybody know, whether the Gebel Elba region of Egypt is part of the Western Palearctic? I can't find anything on the internet.

Gebel Elba lies in the extreme south-eastern corner of Egypt beyond Shalateen, north of the Sudanese border. It was off limits for foreigners for a long time, but it seems to be possible to visit it now.

Attila

 

[Richard Klim]

The disputed Hala'ib Triangle (including Gebel Elba) is excluded from the WP as defined by BWP and Beaman & Madge 1998 (HBI). But Beaman 1994 (Palearctic Birds) defined the 21degN line in Sudan as the WP boundary (and therefore included Gebel Elba and a significant chunk of northern Sudan).

Richard

PS. István Moldovan was organising an exploratory camping expedition to Gebel Elba in April 2010 (which unfortunately I couldn't join due to prior commitments) - it'll be very interesting to hear his team's experiences.

 

[attila]

Thanks Richard!

I guess WP boundaries will be redefined in the upcoming Handbook of the birds of Western Palearctic by Shirihai et al. so probably the situation of the Halaib Triangle will also be cleared.

Yes, I heard about Istvan's expedition. I am also curious about the outcome.

Attila

 

[Microtus]

Thanks Richard!

I guess WP boundaries will be redefined in the upcoming Handbook of the birds of Western Palearctic by Shirihai et al. so probably the situation of the Halaib Triangle will also be cleared.

Yes, I heard about Istvan's expedition. I am also curious about the outcome.

Attila

Attila, tell me more about this book??

 

[Richard Klim]

Shirihai & Svensson WP guide

http://www.acblack.com/naturalhistory/article.aspx?id=122
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Birds-Weste...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270022904&sr=1-1
http://www.wildsounds.com/products/...-to-the-Birds-of-the-Western-Palearctic.shtml

Unlike BWP, the entire Arabian Peninsula and Iran will be included. But the limit in Africa will run along the southern borders of Western Sahara, Algeria, Libya and Egypt, and will thus be more restrictive than BWP (which includes parts of Mauritania, Mali, Niger and Chad). It's unclear whether the authors consider the southern border of Egypt to include or exclude the Hala'ib Triangle.

Richard

 

[Helsinki Birder]

looks like an awesome book!

Owen

 

[attila]

Thanks Richard once again!

I bet a few WP listers will be upset by losing their species ticked in Northern Mauritania.

 

[Microtus]

I love it! Amazon says August 2010 and Wildsounds says April 2011 for availability. And Natural History Book Service says 2012.

The book looks like it will be good.

 

[Richard Klim]

I love it! Amazon says August 2010 and Wildsounds says April 2011 for availability. And Natural History Book Service says 2012.

Yeah, it seems to have been imminent for years now, and just seems to get further away. But perhaps unsurprising when you consider Hadoram Shirihai's other ongoing ambitious projects:

• Kees Roselaar & H Shirihai. Handbook of Geographical Variation and Distribution of Palearctic Birds. Vols 1 & 2 (Passerines & Non-passerines). A&C Black.
  
• H Shirihai. The photographic handbook to taxonomy of the birds of the world.
  
• H Shirihai & Vincent Bretagnolle. Albatrosses, Petrels and Shearwaters of the World: a handbook to their taxonomy, identification, ecology and conservation. A&C Black (Helm).

A busy chap!

Richard

 

[Helsinki Birder]

Yeah, it seems to have been imminent for years now, and just seems to get further away. But perhaps unsurprising when you consider Hadoram Shirihai's other ongoing ambitious projects:

• Kees Roselaar & H Shirihai. Handbook of Geographical Variation and Distribution of Palearctic Birds. Vols 1 & 2 (Passerines & Non-passerines). A&C Black.
  
• H Shirihai. The photographic handbook to taxonomy of the birds of the world.
  
• H Shirihai & Vincent Bretagnolle. Albatrosses, Petrels and Shearwaters of the World: a handbook to their taxonomy, identification, ecology and conservation. A&C Black (Helm).

A busy chap!

Richard

As busy as that makes him, I somehow doubt those publications will be lacking in quality! I look forward to that seabirds book!

Owen

 

[Microtus]

Is he mad? Any one of those books is a major undertaking! I hope I live long enough to see one of them.
|=)|

 

[Perry Smale]

I love it! Amazon says August 2010 and Wildsounds says April 2011 for availability. And Natural History Book Service says 2012.

The book looks like it will be good.

So we might get it by 2020 if we're lucky:-O

 

[Richard Klim]

I love it! Amazon says August 2010 and Wildsounds says April 2011 for availability. And Natural History Book Service says 2012.

Actually, I'd forgotten quite how long we've been waiting for the WP guide.

Alula Press was founded in Finland in September 2000, with the Shirihai & Svensson handbook to be its first major book, planned for completion by the end of 2002. But in late 2003, Antero Topp announced in an emotional editorial in Alula magazine that Alula Press had reluctantly abandoned the project and sold the rights to another publisher (presumably Helm?). At that stage nearly 3,000 photographs had been collected for the book, and 150,000 Euros expended, but not a single word of text had been provided by the authors. I can remember asking Antero about it at the Birdfair, and it was clear that he was totally disillusioned by the experience.

Anyway, almost 10 years after the start of the project, it still seems to be potentially years away from publication...

Richard :smoke:

 

[magifrig]

Speaking as a keen WP lister, I don't think many of the top guys will be altering their lists because someone has come up with an alternative boundary in a new book. The boundary is pretty subjective anyway of course and the BWP definition has stood for over 30 years now. What would happen if in another 10 years someone writes a book with a third boundary?

Looking forward to the book though!

I haven't been to Mauritania (yet) by the way, but if and when I do I will be using the BWP boundary.

Cheers, Graeme Joynt

 

[Helsinki Birder]

Speaking as a keen WP lister, I don't think many of the top guys will be altering their lists because someone has come up with an alternative boundary in a new book. The boundary is pretty subjective anyway of course and the BWP definition has stood for over 30 years now. What would happen if in another 10 years someone writes a book with a third boundary?

Looking forward to the book though!

I haven't been to Mauritania (yet) by the way, but if and when I do I will be using the BWP boundary.

Cheers, Graeme Joynt

More likely that they hybridise the boundaries of various definitions to be more inclusive, allowing them to list all species covered by the various definitions rather then exclude any. Which is what I do.

Owen

 

[Richard Klim]

Speaking as a keen WP lister, I don't think many of the top guys will be altering their lists because someone has come up with an alternative boundary in a new book. The boundary is pretty subjective anyway of course and the BWP definition has stood for over 30 years now.

Yes, I'm sure you're absolutely right, Graeme.

Nevertheless I've long thought it's a pity that we've been lumbered with a rather minimalistic definition of the WP, which I understand was largely driven by a need to limit the production costs of BWP. Of course, it now also limits the horizons and travel costs of competitive WP listers...

Richard

 

[Richard Klim]

Palearctic/Afrotropical boundary

This would shrink the Palearctic somewhat:

• Kreft & Jetz 2010. A framework for delineating biogeographical regions based on species distributions. J Biogeogr: in press.
  http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/123587532/abstract
  
  "Specifically, our results provide evidence that the Sahara, northern Africa, the Arabian Peninsula and parts of the Middle East should be regarded as part of the Afrotropics."

Richard

 

[Jos Stratford]

I bet a few WP listers will be upset by losing their species ticked in Northern Mauritania.

Speaking as a keen WP lister, I don't think many of the top guys will be altering their lists....
I haven't been to Mauritania (yet) by the way, but if and when I do I will be using the BWP boundary.

I would imagine a lot more will be happier by the logical inclusion of U.E.A. and Oman, along with Iran. Given the vast majority of species in these countries are clearly Palearctic in origin, with slight Indo or African flavours, the lines drawn literally in the sand to divide were non-sensical.

I would however imagine Kuwait will be unhappy - given the better birding a few kilometres south, the only reason to ever visit the polluted trigger-happy nation has now been removed.

 

[Microtus]

This would shrink the Palearctic somewhat:

• Kreft & Jetz 2010. A framework for delineating biogeographical regions based on species distributions. J Biogeogr: in press.
  http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/123587532/abstract
  
  "Specifically, our results provide evidence that the Sahara, northern Africa, the Arabian Peninsula and parts of the Middle East should be regarded as part of the Afrotropics."

Richard

Specifically, what parts of the Middle East?

 

[Jos Stratford]

Specifically, what parts of the Middle East?

I would suppose they are saying Yemen and southern Oman, but even in these regions, the 'feel' is of a Palearctic but with nice weather i.e. a far greater number of the species present clearly belong to the Palearctic rather than the Afrotropics.