Canon upgrade; what would you do? (4 Viewers)

[Keith Reeder]

Yes we have - and what he actually says is:

Having an extra two megapixels doesn't always mean you'll get a better image

Also, the extra 2 million pixels doesn't represent a substantial increase in final image size

Though there's a 2 megapixel difference in size between the D70s' images and the 20D's, this is not a significant increase in area

It's difficult to say whether the extra 2 megapixels is worth $300, or a part of that $300.

As we'll see, both of these cameras produce excellent images

And finally, the bit that you refer to:

Personally, I'm glad to have as many pixels as I can get, both to facilitate larger printing, and to allow for cropping and enlarging

I've never disagreed with that: what I've always said (and I say it again in post 10) is:

Of itself though, it's not a great reason to change, all other things being equal

In my reading of the review, he's saying pretty much the same thing - he's hardly gushing about the benefits of the extra 2mp, is he?

 

[macshark]

Agreed, for general purpose photography, the difference between 6MP and 8MP is relatively minor and is only visible when using higher quality lenses that can out-resolve at least the 6MP sensor.

However for bird photography (in the wild) many shots need to be cropped quite a bit and those extra pixels may be quite valuable, as long as the lens being used can outresolve the lower density sensor in the middle of the frame.

 

[Roy C]

Agreed, for general purpose photography, the difference between 6MP and 8MP is relatively minor and is only visible when using higher quality lenses that can out-resolve at least the 6MP sensor.

However for bird photography (in the wild) many shots need to be cropped quite a bit and those extra pixels may be quite valuable, as long as the lens being used can outresolve the lower density sensor in the middle of the frame.

I aggree with macshark, extra MP's gives more 'cropability'

 

[Keith Reeder]

Aye, nobody denies that, Roy.

I'm just saying that the 2mp difference between the 10D and the 30D isn't giving you much real world benefit (just have a look at the graphic in the review - 2mp is about a frame's worth of extra image), and that in itself a 2mp increase is not much of a reason to upgrade.

That's all I'm saying here, and all I've ever said: 2mp isn't a big difference.

Pete ("Postcardcv") has had made exactly this jump, from a 300D to a 350D.

And he says in this posting http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=557627&postcount=8:

I changed from a 6mp camera to a 8mp one and have not noticed any significant difference.

Pete's results speak for themselves, and because he's been there I'm inclined to trust his opinion.

 

[Cashie]

What about the Nikon D2H that is only 4.1 mega pixels & it produces crystal clear photos.

 

[bpw]

Thanks for your input Mike, this might be an important issue I have not considered and not discussed in this thread. If the camera can free up some of that buffer very quickly, that would be a big help.

On the ‘Digital Photography Review’ site they state following testing the 30D, that after a full burst, a further full burst is available after 10 seconds (it can be 50% longer with different card types!). They did not test the 10D in the same way, but I have timed it at approximately 20 seconds, a significant difference and advantage!

On the subject of RAW v JPEG, I’m sure this issue has been discussed in this forum time and again (although I haven’t looked). Using JPEGs would certainly speed up shooting, but there is no argument in my mind; there are simply too many advantages to shooting RAW, which far outweigh the (considerable) disadvantages. Also, I enjoy the PC part of the process (I know, I should get out more!). I used to shoot black-and-white and develop my own, and it was the same then. By the way, with a well-organised system and with the use of ‘actions’ in Photoshop, it really doesn’t take that long!

On the subject of the extra 2MP, given a choice we’d all have the extra (assuming equivalent quality). I have to crop my images more often than not, and the extra MPs would reduce this slightly. But I agree with Keith, that if this were the only reason for spending the £750 (plus £149 for the grip?), then it might not represent good value for money. This is why I have found this forum very helpful. It has put some of these ‘advantages’ into perspective, and brought up some additional issues I hadn’t considered.

Pluvius, you stated, “Eos 1D mark 2n replacement probably in September at Photokina in Cologne. By which time the 1D mark2n should come down in price to below £2000”. Is this based on known information?

 

[Pluvius]

No not on known info but it is £2249 at warehouse express so I am guessing it will come down as did the eos20d.

www.peregrinesbirdblog.blogspot.com

 

[postcardcv]

As has been mentioned I changed from a 300D to a 350D a while back and did not notice much of a difference between 6.3mp and 8mp. However the faster wake up time (2 seconds on the 300 and 0.2 on the 350), bigger buffer and slightly faster shooting rate have all been massive improvements.

 

[paul goode]

As has been mentioned I changed from a 300D to a 350D a while back and did not notice much of a difference between 6.3mp and 8mp. However the faster wake up time (2 seconds on the 300 and 0.2 on the 350), bigger buffer and slightly faster shooting rate have all been massive improvements.

Im with, Peter & Keith on this. Went from 300d to 20d and the extra pixels are the least important of the changes. I must say that when the metering & AF worked the 300d produced some cracking images.

Paul

 

[Kite]

I've said it before somewhere |=o| but anyway.. when I upgraded from the 10D to the 20D the difference was definitely noticeable. I imagine this is partly to do with the pixel increase (6MP to 8MP is 33% increase?, seems quite significant to me) and the other improved aspects of the 20D image. Since then I've been consistently impressed by the images you can get out of the 20D - the detail it brings out is very impressive when edited properly.
To quote Andy Rouse in his review of the 20D on http://www.warehouseexpress.com/ "It’s certainly been my experience that with the larger number of pixels, smaller pixel size, new DIGIC II processor and anti-alias filter, the 20D produces a much better image than the 2MP difference would at first suggest."
The 10D was a great camera in its' time, but things have moved on, in addition to the better images, the 20/30Ds are much more lively, quicker processor, better AF etc etc

 

[dylan]

I have the BG-ED3 grip with my 10D, but notice the grip for the 30D is the BG-E2 (£149). Does anyone know if my BG-ED3 would fit the 30D?

I've been wondering the same thing Paul, did you find this out?


My D60 has let me down a few times (slow autofocus & Err01) and am looking at getting a 30D so am finding this thread very interesting!

As well as the better autofocus, quicker startup, buffer & megapixels, I really like the idea of the bigger display on the 30D.

Dylan.

 

[bpw]

Hi Dylan,

I read on the dpreview.com forums that the BG-ED3 grip is not compatible with the 20D because the 20D body is smaller than the 10D. The grip will therefore not be compatible with the 30D. I find the 10D difficult to handle without the grip, so if I went for the 30D I'd have to buy the BG-E2 - £149.99 at warehouseexpress.com.

 

[dylan]

Cheers for the info Paul, appreciate it.

Dylan.

 

[Keith Reeder]

To quote Andy Rouse in his review of the 20D on http://www.warehouseexpress.com/ "It’s certainly been my experience that with the larger number of pixels, smaller pixel size, new DIGIC II processor and anti-alias filter, the 20D produces a much better image than the 2MP difference would at first suggest."

In other words, Andy didn't/doesn't expect the extra 2mp to make much of a difference either, therefore the improvement must be from something other than the extra 2mp (like the Digic II processor, the new AA filter, and so on).

That's what I'm saying - the extra 2mp is the least important "improvement"!



I'll put it another way: if we're actually discussing the idea that more megapixels is the route to photographic nirvana, I've got a D70 and a D200, and - for my usage - the D70 produces images which are spectacularly better than the D200.

I've got no direct, like-for-like comparison pictures, but the attached marsh harriers are typical examples of what the D200 has been doing for me.

They're straight 100% crops (after NEF - jpeg conversion in Nikon Capture) - nothing else has been done to them.

Here's the EXIF:

Picture 1
ExposureTime=2/1000 sec
FNumber=F7.1
ISOSpeedRatings=100
ExposureBiasValue=-2/6
FocalLength=400.00 mm

Picture 2
ExposureTime=25/10000 sec
FNumber=F7.1
ISOSpeedRatings=560
ExposureBiasValue=2/6
FocalLength=400.00 mm

Horrendous, aren't they?

Extra pixels - all 4 millions of 'em - haven't helped much there...

The point? If you want a real improvement in your images, don't expect to get it by simply going for a bigger sensor - there are so many other factors that matter more, and in fact I'm in no doubt that the problem with the D200 is the extra mps shoe-horned into a DX sized sensor.

 

[bpw]

Just thought I’d update this thread for anyone wondering what decision I came to. Unfortunately, my work situation changed a few weeks ago and thing are a little uncertain, so I’ve been forced to put the decision off until this changes.

Perhaps in the meantime Canon will introduce a new model that will be ideal for me: 20 MP sensor, 10 fps, 40 frame continuous shooting (RAW), less than £1,000... dream on

Thanks to everyone for your input!

 

[macshark]

Perhaps in the meantime Canon will introduce a new model that will be ideal for me: 20 MP sensor, 10 fps, 40 frame continuous shooting (RAW), less than £1,000... dream on

You forgot ISO12800, 3.5" million-pixel LCD and the live preview feature!

3

 

[Kite]

In other words, Andy didn't/doesn't expect the extra 2mp to make much of a difference either, therefore the improvement must be from something other than the extra 2mp (like the Digic II processor, the new AA filter, and so on).

That's what I'm saying - the extra 2mp is the least important "improvement"!

I was talking about the image quality as a whole
I can't comment on Nikon cameras , but with the Canons, the image quality is improving as Canon increases the pixel count, and the two are surely not complete coincidence. Indeed the other improvements are also very important, (I've had to use a 10D again recently (20D in for minor repair) and it's so slow!) but don't ignore image quality!

 

[shiverfix]

I have a 10D which I have owned since just before the 300D was released. It has gotten a lot of use. Now that the 30D is out, I am seriously considering upgrading to the 20D. The 30D has driven the price of the 20D down, and doesn't have enough features for me to justify the extra price. I have heard wonderful things about the 20D.

Part of going with the 20D is because it has a higher megapixal than the 10D. I know it doesn't make a huge difference, but it still gives the ability for a larger print, or to crop more with the same quality as the 10D. The 20D also has a better sensor than the 10D, so image quality is better overall. It also has better noise reduction, which is important if you are shooting at higher ISO settings.

 

[bpw]

Well, I broke my faithful 10D yesterday. After downloading my recent pictures, I pushed the CF card back into the slot and it didn’t feel right. The camera wouldn’t read the card and eventually reported a CF card error. One of the pins had bent. I’ve been pushing the card in without much thought over the last two years and I’ve never considered this to be a potential weakness. I’ll have to take more care with my new camera.

Yes, I’ve used the failure as an excuse to buy my new camera. I had intended to hang on until the work situation changed and Canon introduced a new model, as this may reduce the price of existing models, but...

I considered the 30D, and the 20D (good value at the moment), but I’ve gone for the 1D Mark II N. Seems a bit reckless in my current position, but I was feeling low and now I’m feeling better! Will arrive tomorrow hopefully.

 

[Keith Reeder]

Comiserations and congratulations, Paul - I look forward to seeing the results of your new purchase (well, investment is probably a better word!)

The bent pin issue is probably the only real downside of using CF cards as opposed to one of the other digital media.