bitterntwisted
Graham Howard Shortt
No. Hence 22 pages!
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Chinatown Warbler (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jane Turner
- Start date
No. Hence 22 pages!
Edward woodwood
Member
If this thread were a horse, they'd shoot it.
Twice.
Tim
o
Twice.
Tim
oWinterdune
Well-known member
In my limited experience of Olivaceous (Watermill, St Mary's, nineteen eighty something), a most obvious feature is the width of the bill base in the photos from below, which points unambiguously to Reed. It just seems like a normal Reed to me. This feature in the Scilly bird was really, really wide, as with Hippos in general. Also the UTCs look totally like an Acro to me in almost all photos. Just my tuppence worth...
Sean
It looks like a regular Reed Warbler to me also that why I was asking for a (at least one !) feature showing it may be not a Reed Warbler.
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Steven Astley
Well-known member
What about the shape Sean did you notice? Collins says Olivaceous has convex shaped sides to the bill this bird has slightly concave.
Obviously a tough bird in the field almost glad I was unable to see it now. I think in the aftermath with careful analysis most people realise it was most likely an odd Reed?
I went out tonight doing a rare thing for me at the moment, birding. Was looking at non singing Willow Warblers flitting about it was impossible to get measure of there primary projection only to say they appeared long winged compared to Chiffchaff. Ironically its easier when they are singing. You really do need patience to read PP of active warblers.
Non singing warblers in the field are tough, thank goodness for photographers and ringers.
I like Warblers but nowadays only ones that sing.
The difference between this bird and a lot of the ID discussions we get on here is that it isn't just some photographs, its 3-600 hours of field observation too. This bird is a lot more interesting as an Odd Reed Warbler you know - for it was a very strange bird in the field. 200 people saw it. Some may have just turned up to tick it, but I know at least ten experienced birders who analysed it hard, asking the question why isn't it just a Reed Warbler. If it turned up again, the same would happen.
That alone makes it worth discussing.
That alone makes it worth discussing.
hannu
Well-known member
the colour of claws and toes and tarsus:
http://www.hi.is/~gunnih/pic/hettu_sef.jpg
http://www.rutlandwater.org.uk/Images/ReedWarbler.GIF
http://www.oiseaux.net/oiseaux/passeriformes/images/rousserolle.effarvatte.jufo.2g.jpg
http://audevard.aurelien.free.fr/IMG/jpg/Rousserolle_effarvatte_juv_1BB_vign_03082006_-_Ouessant.jpg
http://www.birdlist.co.uk/images/reedwarbler.jpg
http://www.waterfordbirds.com/siteb...dw_innet_2_bellelake_aug2004.jpg.w300h225.jpg
the colour of underparts, the length of utcs, etc
http://www.northamptonshirewildlife.co.uk/images/reedwa.jpg
http://www.hi.is/~gunnih/pic/hettu_sef.jpg
http://www.rutlandwater.org.uk/Images/ReedWarbler.GIF
http://www.oiseaux.net/oiseaux/passeriformes/images/rousserolle.effarvatte.jufo.2g.jpg
http://audevard.aurelien.free.fr/IMG/jpg/Rousserolle_effarvatte_juv_1BB_vign_03082006_-_Ouessant.jpg
http://www.birdlist.co.uk/images/reedwarbler.jpg
http://www.waterfordbirds.com/siteb...dw_innet_2_bellelake_aug2004.jpg.w300h225.jpg
the colour of underparts, the length of utcs, etc
http://www.northamptonshirewildlife.co.uk/images/reedwa.jpg
That last one is a nice pale one on the underparts
About the legs, How common are pink legs on Reed Warblers. They are listed as "occasional" in BWP. Like the links you show, I can only find horn/bluish and yellowish on the feet.
About the legs, How common are pink legs on Reed Warblers. They are listed as "occasional" in BWP. Like the links you show, I can only find horn/bluish and yellowish on the feet.
hannu
Well-known member
I don't have enough experience in Reed Warblers and personally I don't remember to see pink legs. Also I don't know which kind of study these references based on, so I can not get answer to your question!
Perhaps you should better known if you have so good experience, obviously in hundreds Reeds?
But it's know that the colour of legs varies rather much in Reed, being usually rather dark greyish or greyish brown (especially the hind claws). I don't think so that the colour of legs is very important feature in this case, particularly when it hasn't picked up such separate feature between Hippolais and Reed.
I think that we should not make any exact judges of ourselves from the colour of legs based on these photograps. They are not so high quality that we can trust the colour of legs without any doubt.Too many factors act on the result: how each of us see the colour, the angle and the amount of ligth, enviroment, the position and state of legs, ...
So what you think now about the length of 1P?
Perhaps you should better known if you have so good experience, obviously in hundreds Reeds?
But it's know that the colour of legs varies rather much in Reed, being usually rather dark greyish or greyish brown (especially the hind claws). I don't think so that the colour of legs is very important feature in this case, particularly when it hasn't picked up such separate feature between Hippolais and Reed.
I think that we should not make any exact judges of ourselves from the colour of legs based on these photograps. They are not so high quality that we can trust the colour of legs without any doubt.Too many factors act on the result: how each of us see the colour, the angle and the amount of ligth, enviroment, the position and state of legs, ...
So what you think now about the length of 1P?
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My first impression was that the feature was too long to be the 1st P, even though there were no "landmarks" to compare it to. I became less certain when I started seeing pictures of Sykes' Warblers with very long 1st primaries. There is a tantalising similarity between these two pictures. - the latter is at the short end for a Sykes' according to in hand measurements. Of course it could just the the secondaries.
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=100200&d=1187601489
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=98423&d=1186642278
Re the legs, I have never knowingly seen pink legs on a Reed Warbler, though believe they do exist. I too doubt colour reproduction of photographs. The field observation was however also pinkish horn (like a Whitethroat)
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=100200&d=1187601489
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=98423&d=1186642278
Re the legs, I have never knowingly seen pink legs on a Reed Warbler, though believe they do exist. I too doubt colour reproduction of photographs. The field observation was however also pinkish horn (like a Whitethroat)
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Hannu, one of the Sykes' I referred is >here<
There are a couple of others where the 1st primary is as long and as visible, I just haven't recorded where I saw them - it will take longer to relocated them.
edit: this post and the one after makes less sense since Hannu deleted his post on the visibility of 1st primaries.
There are a couple of others where the 1st primary is as long and as visible, I just haven't recorded where I saw them - it will take longer to relocated them.
edit: this post and the one after makes less sense since Hannu deleted his post on the visibility of 1st primaries.
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This is another nice long 1st pp (see attachment and original here)
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=7326
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/HipramKI6W6077.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/HipramKI6W6081.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/HipramKI6W3713.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/HipramKI6W3717.jpg
The 1st primary on species where it is not vestigial, seems to be wider as well as longer, making it more likely to be seen on a folded wing on the outside. You can see this on eg Raddes Warblers too.
>>THIS<< bird in in almost the same pose as Manc wrbler - unfortunatley there is a ****** reed in the way so you can't see where the 1st primary would end in a view like this!
So to reiterate, IF that feature were a Sykes' Warbler length 1st primary, I have gone from thinking it couldn't be in the position it appears in the "from under the wing" photograph, to thinking that it is not impossible. In the sideways on shots, it could easily be the 1st primary length-wise, though the feather margin doesn't look quite right to me. That is why I originally took it to be the second pp.
The bill might be a problem, certainly the tertial spacing would seem to be a problem for Sykes'! The underpart colour seems to be a more variable! Also it looked short-tailed not long-tailed in the field. Perhaps we should swap roles for a bit. You argue for Sykes' and I'll argue against!!!!
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=7326
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/HipramKI6W6077.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/HipramKI6W6081.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/HipramKI6W3713.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/HipramKI6W3717.jpg
The 1st primary on species where it is not vestigial, seems to be wider as well as longer, making it more likely to be seen on a folded wing on the outside. You can see this on eg Raddes Warblers too.
>>THIS<< bird in in almost the same pose as Manc wrbler - unfortunatley there is a ****** reed in the way so you can't see where the 1st primary would end in a view like this!
So to reiterate, IF that feature were a Sykes' Warbler length 1st primary, I have gone from thinking it couldn't be in the position it appears in the "from under the wing" photograph, to thinking that it is not impossible. In the sideways on shots, it could easily be the 1st primary length-wise, though the feather margin doesn't look quite right to me. That is why I originally took it to be the second pp.
The bill might be a problem, certainly the tertial spacing would seem to be a problem for Sykes'! The underpart colour seems to be a more variable! Also it looked short-tailed not long-tailed in the field. Perhaps we should swap roles for a bit. You argue for Sykes' and I'll argue against!!!!
Attachments
That bird is in tail moult. Something that might explain impression of tail shape in the Manchester bird, perhaps also the impression of tail carriage (held tight) if enough feathers where missing. Tail moult is supposed to be rare in the breeding grounds.
I still see blue/grey tones and yellowish feet on these birds, not pinkish tones, and some lovely dark hind claws. Do you have any photos with the light shining through them, making them look whitish?
I still see blue/grey tones and yellowish feet on these birds, not pinkish tones, and some lovely dark hind claws. Do you have any photos with the light shining through them, making them look whitish?
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That's better! That sort of reddish tinged (dark horn) colour was occasionally visible on the front of the Manchester bird's legs. I assume that was an adult - I can't tell without seeing a bit more of the bird. I don't suppose you also have a photo of the back of that bird's leg do you?
