Clouds on the horizon? (1 Viewer)

[tenex]

I saw some Meopta binoculars that were dead ringers to my eyes of Zeiss Conquest models so, to me, it was a simple rebranding exercise.

With Chinese stuff this kind of inference is quite standard, but with Zeiss and Meopta I would want to have better (i.e. some actual) evidence for stating it in bold face as a fact. Zeiss/Leica use Meopta to produce high-end scopes, not lower-tier products; Meopta isn't that sort of company. For that one looks to the East... as Meopta themselves now do.

Glad you're getting your 15x choice sorted out.

 

[sidpost]

With Chinese stuff this kind of inference is quite standard, but with Zeiss and Meopta I would want to have better (i.e. some actual) evidence for stating it in bold face as a fact. Zeiss/Leica use Meopta to produce high-end scopes, not lower-tier products; Meopta isn't that sort of company. For that one looks to the East... as Meopta themselves now do.

Glad you're getting your 15x choice sorted out.

Counterfeit products for firearms-related optics back then were really easy to spot. As I didn't buy or sell Meopta or Minox binoculars or scopes, it was more of a curiosity to me than a serious examination. Weight, balance, feel, and limited optical assessment inside a building suggested to me at the time there very similar if not the same. I wasn't a critical assessment of optics and I was certainly no expert so I could have been duped or spot on.

However, my thoughts on the subject were confirmed by a Zeiss specialist dealer I was friendly with that had no reason to lie or brag about this subject.

Chinese (and other Asian) knockoffs back then were almost comical in comparison.

Whether anyone believes Meopta did or did not make very similar binoculars to what they built for Zeiss (in my case) back then is not a significant issue for me. As noted here, Meopta is capable of building spotting scopes to Leica and Zeiss quality in Europe so is it really hard to believe they could do the same with binoculars in the United States?

That was then, this is now.

Zeiss is a different company today than it was then, for better or worse. Swarovski seems to be going through some family turmoil now that may or may not affect their sport optics.

From looking at reviews here and on hunting forums, modern Meopta options certainly appear to offer a lot of value in general purpose sports optics. The 'big three' certainly have an advantage for more specialized optics at the moment from what I can see but, it may not be that way in the future as economics change for the big European conglomerates in the sports optics world.

 

[Troubador]

At gun shows back in the days I was an FFL, I saw some Meopta binoculars that were dead ringers to my eyes of Zeiss Conquest models so, to me, it was a simple rebranding exercise.

Rebranding is term that is often used rather loosely. On the one hand a brand can design a bino and have it contract manufactured by another company as Zeiss did by getting Meopta to make some Diascopes and my information is they did something similar with Conquest HD except the contracting partner is in the far east, and work is still done in Germany to comply with rules about product origin. At the other end of the scale a brand can choose a bino already designed by a partner and put new armour and their own logos on it and this is truly rebranding. But there are shades in between these two extremes. For example I don't believe the Terra binos are a Zeiss design but I do know it isn't a simple rebranding because the specification of the glasses used was changed to include Schott ED glass and for all I know other components might have been changed.

BTW it seems likely from reply to Tenex where you mention 'back then' that you are referring to the original Conquests (which were made by Zeiss in their factory in Hungary) rather than the current Conquest HDs which I describe above.

As Gijs has pointed out Meopta make the excellent MeoStar binoculars and as you can read in the interviews I have done with Milos Slany of Meopta, other bino models marketed by Meopta are assembled by Meopta using components usually sourced from elsewhere but which might be made by Meopta depending on the demands on their production capacity at the time. So this 'buy or make' policy again makes the term 'rebranding' too simple a concept. He also made it clear that Meopta label these models Made in Czech or Assembled in Czech to truthfully represent how they were produced.

Lee

 

[sidpost]

Good points Lee!

The external appearances may be deceiving as you note because an OEM could install different components inside the outer chassis for different contracts with different corporate entities with their own 'quality' standards. Contract manufacturing even in China could build a very high-quality product if someone wanted to pay for it and the quality control process.

Designations of "origin" can be confusing too with global supply and manufacturing chains. Manufactured in, assembled in, etc. all serve to confuse many consumers.

Personally, when I think of "historical" Zeiss for example, I am thinking of German design, with German manufacturing, and German components. What does "Made in America" really mean? Just assembled in the USA with components from wherever and a design from Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or ... ?

 

[Sebzwo]

Is there any indication that the reorganization at Swarovski will affect their binoculars business at all? Sounds more like their decorative crystal glass branch is under competitor's pricing pressure.
I hope they recover. They have been both innovative and high quality for a long time.

 

[sidpost]

Is there any indication that the reorganization at Swarovski will affect their binoculars business at all? Sounds more like their decorative crystal glass branch is under competitor's pricing pressure.
I hope they recover. They have been both innovative and high quality for a long time.

The rumor mill I saw suggested that the SLC line is being discontinued.

Regarding their crystal business, I suspect decorative glass is under pressure from COVID shutdowns. Clothing crystals are a commodity these days and it is easy to procure good quality crystals cheaply from China.

COVID financial pressure and family control squabbles have been the downfall of many good businesses. The reality is likely affecting crystal products the most as it is really a "luxury" item.

Binoculars have a much wider consumer audience so, I'm hopeful they will be spared from the majority of these impacts.

 

[jan van daalen]

It's no rumor, the 42SLC line is gone. Swaro has no stock left and ended the production line. We will get the last four units this week.

Jan

 

[kaboku68]

I was talking with Swaro today. They said that this last year was the most profitable for their separate sports optic division. A perfect storm of people going out into nature and extremely great products coincided with many people having more discretionary funds because they weren't going out led to tremendous sales. The fact that many of their product lines are backed up in back order from three to possibly six months is all that you have to know.

 

[Troubador]

I was talking with Swaro today. They said that this last year was the most profitable for their separate sports optic division. A perfect storm of people going out into nature and extremely great products coincided with many people having more discretionary funds because they weren't going out led to tremendous sales. The fact that many of their product lines are backed up in back order from three to possibly six months is all that you have to know.

The fact that Swaro is back-ordered 3-6 months is not necessarily a sign that all is well. It may be that their deliveries are lagging behind the demand because of Covid-related factors in their own factory or those of their suppliers or sub-suppliers. Re-organising your factory according to social distancing, or managing your workforce when some are absent due to illness tends to slow production. In the meantime potential customers get impatient and buy a different brand and this is what Jan van Daalen described is happening in his shop where he has no problem obtaining Zeiss products.

Lee

 

[sidpost]

I was talking with Swaro today. They said that this last year was the most profitable for their separate sports optic division. A perfect storm of people going out into nature and extremely great products coincided with many people having more discretionary funds because they weren't going out led to tremendous sales. The fact that many of their product lines are backed up in back order from three to possibly six months is all that you have to know.

The fact that Swaro is back-ordered 3-6 months is not necessarily a sign that all is well. It may be that their deliveries are lagging behind the demand because of Covid-related factors in their own factory or those of their suppliers or sub-suppliers. Re-organising your factory according to social distancing, or managing your workforce when some are absent due to illness tends to slow production. In the meantime potential customers get impatient and buy a different brand and this is what Jan van Daalen described is happening in his shop where he has no problem obtaining Zeiss products.

Lee

Lee's points are spot on. Supply and demand along with impulse shopping and extended supply chains.

Why did I buy a pair of Leica Noctvid 8x42's instead of something else? Price and availability! They are a top option for this class of bin so, it's not like I settled.

Personally, I'm waiting to buy a motorcycle as I expect a lot of purchase regret from people that impulse bought with idle hands at the computer. Why would I overpay today when I can't really ride anywhere? I do have a motorcycle to putter around on locally so it's not like I'm walking. The same holds true for a new "gravel" bike purchase with bicycle factories being sold out into 2022 as well.

My Zeiss Victory HT 10x54's are out there, I just need to be patient as I am with my bicycle and motorcycle purchases!

Whether Swarovski has these issues and COVID sickness and distancing issues are something I can only speculate on. All I know is that I really want to 'fall in love' with Swarovski bins but so far it just hasn't happened for me and my "biological background".

 

[dries1]

Question regarding sport optics, how much Zeiss are sold in Europe compared to Swarovski? I would gander that Swarovski leads by a large margin.

Andy W.

 

[sidpost]

Zeiss is a huge EU based enterprise with a huge optical division outside of sport optics.

I find Swarovski a bit of a 'fashion' brand with a market focus on fashion and sport optics. Personally, I really like their ornamental glass which gives the British a lot of competition for my discretionary dollars.

Zeiss has a very strong industrial focus and I don't really see much overlap beyond sports optics.

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

Swarovski has different sub companies: crystal (large), Tyrolyt (grinding materials, large) , optics.
Optics is the smallest part.
Gijs van Ginkel

 

[Troubador]

Question regarding sport optics, how much Zeiss are sold in Europe compared to Swarovski? I would gander that Swarovski leads by a large margin.

Andy W.

Andy I am sure that in normal times you would be correct, but these are not normal times.

Lee

 

[dries1]

Andy I am sure that in normal times you would be correct, but these are not normal times.

Lee

Yes Lee, these are surely not normal times, here and abroad.

Andy W.

 

[kaboku68]

I am just curious how Leica and Zeiss will respond to the 10X42 Legends. I do know that I also ordered a pair of 8X30 HD Conquests and all things seemed to be in order. They said that they had a very profitable year as well. Vortex has said that their sales were also at a record level.

 

[Maljunulo]

It sounds to me as if hiring that CEO might have been a big mistake.

It's a shame if all this is because family is more interested in enjoying the money than in running and guiding the business.

 

[pbjosh]

It's very hard to say from the outside with little real inside what is going on. The reality is always a complex balancing of factors. There could be leadership / organizational problems, or not. There could be significant impact from covid on production, or not. There is possibly excess demand due to more people turning to birding and/or shopping online during the pandemic, as seems to be reported for many brands. Perhaps some retailers can give some insight in overall demand for 2020 vs 2019? As well, there could be demand for the very well received NL's in excess of what was anticipated. None of these factors is dependent on any other, but they will all interact of course.

 

[kaboku68]

There is another option as well. I know that within hunting and birding to a lesser extent has seen a rise in the "bro" hunter phenomenon. This is the gauche noob loaded with discretionary cash that tries to earn respect and kudos not from what they do out in the field or glade but through status purchases. NLs or SFs show the hot babe or dude that you are a catch. Kind of like male birds attracting females with brilliant feathers.

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

Maljunulo, post37,
What is your source of information to formulate such concluusions? My information is that the optical company is working very hard to make a fairly large programme of binoculars and telescopes. A completely new line of binoculars, the NL pure, is recently released amidst of a pandemic and the demand is enormous is what I hear from shops. The company also released a 155 mm head for the ATX/BTX telescope and all that amidst a very serious pandemic which has hit Austria very hard and which makes normal working conditions very difficult in comapny buidings that are not designed especially for these circumstances. And some other developments are undoubtedly also underway to please the users. So before jumping to quick conclusions it seems better to wait until the company itself releases further information.
Gijs van Ginkel