Deer culling the natural way (3 Viewers)

[Paultricounty]

Paul, YOU don't get it pal, I'll spell it out clearly for you.....Trophy Hunters.
Yep, I did have a change of heart - maturing, growing up, whatever, or maybe just not enjoying the process. Your last sentence doesn't warrant an answer eect it should end in the correct punctuation mark.

Thank you for the grammar suggestion, you happy now?

Your second sentence doesn’t warrant an answer buddy. I’ll spell it out for you and make you happy, (correct my grammar at your leisure) I’ll say that all the trophy hunters in the world are just immature, deplorable and stupid that haven’t grown up.

 

[Farnboro John]

Please don't take this as me being mean or rude, but I think you don't get it.
I'm certain that there are meat hunters who behave abhorrently. That doesn't mean the entire activity or group of people gets condemned. I'm certain there are fishermen that behave abhorrently, but that doesn't mean that fishing or all fishermen should be abhorred. The same goes for trophy hunting. There is nothing wrong or abhorrent about the activity of trophy hunting itself, but there are individuals who do it unethically and abhorrently.

No, I (and I think a lot of others) disagree. You can make a case for antlers of edible ungulates but not for predators and never for anything less than "of least concern". Someone wanting a trophy doesn't mean they should be allowed one. The simple wanting of trophies is abhorrent.

John

 

[Paultricounty]

No, I (and I think a lot of others) disagree. You can make a case for antlers of edible ungulates but not for predators and never for anything less than "of least concern". Someone wanting a trophy doesn't mean they should be allowed one. The simple wanting of trophies is abhorrent.

John

In your opinion, you left that out. 🙏🏼

 

[qwerty5]

never for anything less than "of least concern".

I agree, and I'll add that most trophy hunters are also pro-conservation.

but not for predators

Why?

The simple wanting of trophies is abhorrent.

Why? Is the simple wanting of a large life list abhorrent? Or a nice antique collection? Or a cool car?

 

[MiddleRiver]

We used to stuff and mount birds…

Really it’s a philosophical divide (dare I say spiritual?). Killing for a record or tick list or mount is simply not in my world view. To travel to a reserve or foreign country to engage in guided hunt etc. seems colonial and disrespectful of the animals in the same way I have no interest in aggressive twitching that disrupts breeding or nesting.

 

[opisska]

The problem of "sports hunting" is that the hunters have interests that go against any sensible nature conservation - and they are pushing these interests hard in politics. So we have this absurd situation, where the hunter groups feed the deer in the winter, only then to cry how "overpopulated" they are and that they need to shoot them. And they even have the audacity to ask for subsidies, because the feed is so expensive! What is worse, they classify large predators as "nuisance animals" and shoot them. We now - just this week - have a motion to allow the shooting of wolves, because they do too much "damage" on the precious deer stocks (that, I remind you, have to be always culled due to terrible overpopulation).

What I find personally the most absurd is how the entire landscape is turned into a shooting range for a couple of months of the year and how the shooters act like they own the forests and that everyone else is just in their way - often quite aggressively. Note that in the Czech Republic, there is legal freedom to roam in any forest ... but they don't seem to care. I think that if this "hobby" did not exist and someone proposed to make it legal - such person would get laughed away very quickly. But because it is a "tradition", it's immovable. Well, because of that and also because about half of the MPs are active hunters ... That's really what you get for constantly voting in old men to govern you.

So yeah, this is not a "two sides with equally valid points" issue for me. One side cares only about their hobby, actively hurts conservation of many species, turns half the country into an overgrazed wasteland where people cannot walk without fearing to be shot ... and the other side just wants this nonsense to stop.

 

[Paultricounty]

I think we just need to add hunting to the dogma of religion and political topics. I’ve hunted over the decades, i’m not a big hunter and never have been , yet I find certain types of trophy hunting abhorrent. But I also find the people who draw a line in the sand and put everyone into one group, abhorrent. So I guess If the shoe fits , you know who you are.

 

[MiddleRiver]

I think we just need to add hunting to the dogma of religion and political topics. I’ve hunted over the decades, i’m not a big hunter and never have been , yet I find certain types of trophy hunting abhorrent. But I also find the people who draw a line in the sand and put everyone into one group, abhorrent. So I guess If the shoe fits , you know who you are.

Not hunting Paul,… trophy hunting.

 

[opisska]

It doesn't work this way. There are not "a few bad appples" among hunters, there is a huge, coherent and organized hunting movement that is actively hurting both the nature and the rest of the society. And I am NOT talking about some specific corner of "trophy hunting" - the problem - at least in Europe, which is the place where the things that started this thread are happening - is all hunting, period.

 

[Paultricounty]

Not hunting Paul,… trophy hunting.

Ok, put in the words ‘all trophy hunting, in front of hunting. We gotta narrow it down.

 

[Paultricounty]

It doesn't work this way. There are not "a few bad appples" among hunters, there is a huge, coherent and organized hunting movement that is actively hurting both the nature and the rest of the society. And I am NOT talking about some specific corner of "trophy hunting" - the problem - at least in Europe, which is the place where the things that started this thread are happening - is all hunting, period.

Lmao. Yeah let’s keep that in Europe , you people should be ashamed of yourselves 😛.

 

[qwerty5]

Really it’s a philosophical divide

I think in a large way, it's a cultural and personality difference, and I think we should recognize that those on either side, hunters and non-hunters, aren't wrong, just different.

So yeah, this is not a "two sides with equally valid points" issue for me. One side cares only about their hobby, actively hurts conservation of many species, turns half the country into an overgrazed wasteland where people cannot walk without fearing to be shot ... and the other side just wants this nonsense to stop

That may be true in the Czech Republic, I won't argue there. In America, however, conservation has historically been funded almost exclusively by hunting and fishing. The revenue from hunting licenses and permits was $902 million in 2020. Furthermore look at the impact of organizations like Ducks Unlimited and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. U.S. conservation is built on hunting, and without it, we wouldn't have much left.

 

[Conndomat]

The problem of "sports hunting" is that the hunters have interests that go against any sensible nature conservation - and they are pushing these interests hard in politics. So we have this absurd situation, where the hunter groups feed the deer in the winter, only then to cry how "overpopulated" they are and that they need to shoot them. And they even have the audacity to ask for subsidies, because the feed is so expensive! What is worse, they classify large predators as "nuisance animals" and shoot them. We now - just this week - have a motion to allow the shooting of wolves, because they do too much "damage" on the precious deer stocks (that, I remind you, have to be always culled due to terrible overpopulation).

What I find personally the most absurd is how the entire landscape is turned into a shooting range for a couple of months of the year and how the shooters act like they own the forests and that everyone else is just in their way - often quite aggressively. Note that in the Czech Republic, there is legal freedom to roam in any forest ... but they don't seem to care. I think that if this "hobby" did not exist and someone proposed to make it legal - such person would get laughed away very quickly. But because it is a "tradition", it's immovable. Well, because of that and also because about half of the MPs are active hunters ... That's really what you get for constantly voting in old men to govern you.

So yeah, this is not a "two sides with equally valid points" issue for me. One side cares only about their hobby, actively hurts conservation of many species, turns half the country into an overgrazed wasteland where people cannot walk without fearing to be shot ... and the other side just wants this nonsense to stop.

It's the same in Germany, hunting is an absurdity, people complain about too many wild boar, deer and as soon as the first wolf puts its paw on land, a shooting permit is demanded.

Hunters here are primarily wealthy people who can afford it and have a strong lobby right up to Parliament, it's like in the Middle Ages, the feudal lords drive the rabble out of the forests so that the hunters can pursue their leisure activities unhindered, even in Germany the forest is common property and gentlemen don't care.

In the meantime, the "colleagues" in Germany have also implemented night hunting, that means with a thermal imaging camera and night vision devices, there are several high seats in the immediate vicinity, you can hear the shooting all the time at night, let's see when I'll be shot with my telescope in the field.

Andreas

 

[KC Foggin]

In the meantime, the "colleagues" in Germany have also implemented night hunting, that means with a thermal imaging camera and night vision devices, there are several high seats in the immediate vicinity, you can hear the shooting all the time at night, let's see when I'll be shot with my telescope in the field.
Andreas

Don't even think that way Andres!!!!!

 

[Conndomat]

It’s a little bit like the firearms topic (in the US) where for many, gun crime dictates or influence’s people opinions of guns. Most will focus on the 35k deaths a year (60% are suicides which most people don’t know) , but completely dismiss the 500k-1.5 million people who use a firearm to prevent bodily harm from accruing every year. But of course a lot of that is media driven and ignorance of the topic.

Paul, that's below your level, the fact is that, statistically speaking, the United States is at the top of the list when it comes to gun deaths, even if you exclude suicides.

Andreas

 

[Paultricounty]

It's the same in Germany, hunting is an absurdity, people complain about too many wild boar, deer and as soon as the first wolf puts its paw on land, a shooting permit is demanded.

Hypocrisy is innate in human beings.

Hunters here are primarily wealthy people who can afford it and have a strong lobby right up to Parliament, it's like in the Middle Ages, the feudal lords drive the rabble out of the forests so that the hunters can pursue their leisure activities unhindered, even in Germany the forest is common property and gentlemen don't care.

Here is the states all from the economically handicapped all the way to very rich from 12 years up can and do hunt, in quite large numbers I might add. Depending on the game , it is relatively inexpensive and there still are a lot of places to hunt. I have never seen non-hunters interfere with hunters during hunting season. I have seen quite a few people while hunting that didn’t know it’s opening day or the height of the hunting season hiking along.

In the meantime, the "colleagues" in Germany have also implemented night hunting, that means with a thermal imaging camera and night vision devices, there are several high seats in the immediate vicinity, you can hear the shooting all the time at night, let's see when I'll be shot with my telescope in the field.

I call that abhorrent. We’re more civilized here in the States 🤣. Just twisting you a little Andreas, peice brother🙏🏼.

Andreas

Edit. I apologize for leaving this out , I have seen anti hunters try to stop an open season hunt on the barrier island , fire island of Long Island NY about 10 years ago. I posted this event detail in one of the discussions. But that was an unusual situation, and lots of things led up to the interference. 🙏🏼

 

[Paultricounty]

Paul, that's below your level, the fact is that, statistically speaking, the United States is at the top of the list when it comes to gun deaths, even if you exclude suicides.

Andreas

Facts are not below my level. I’ve studied gun crime and have been a proponent of teaching firearm safety for most of my life. I know the stats, I know the laws, and I know the stupidity. I didn’t make one statement about the United States not being at the top of the list, but maybe you read something into it that wasn’t there. I can assure you that if you remove the guns, or at least some of them that that homicide rate in the US would still be extremely high. I know a lot of people don’t want to accept this, and it’s cliché, but guns don’t kill people, people kill people. we don’t have a gun problem , we have a cultural problem.

 

[Conndomat]

Here is the states all from the economically handicapped all the way to very rich from 12 years up can and do hunt, in quite large numbers I might add. Depending on the game , it is relatively inexpensive and there still are a lot of places to hunt. I have never seen non-hunters interfere with hunters during hunting season. I have seen quite a few people while hunting that didn’t know it’s opening day or the height of the hunting season hiking along.

Mainly large landowners hunt here, i.e. rather well-off people, there are only very few "normal people" among them, poorer people simply cannot afford it!
In the meantime, hunting has become a trend sport for young and well-to-do city dwellers who are looking for some adventure, who then drive up in their Porsche, run a bit through the forest, shoot a few times and then back to civilization.

Paul, I already had this discussion with Tom, the USA is not comparable to Germany, you have just 4 times as many inhabitants, but are 27 times larger!
It is inevitable that forest hikers meet hunters in the hunting season, usually the hunters then try to drive the people away although it is not their right to do so.
The forest is public property and is available to every citizen, even during the hunting season, civil rights are above hunters' rights, anything else would be deprivation of liberty.

I know a lot of people don’t want to accept this, and it’s cliché, but guns don’t kill people, people kill people. we don’t have a gun problem , we have a cultural problem.

Should our cultures be so different?

Andreas

 

[etudiant]

The hunting debate is unfortunately peripheral to the original deer cull issue.
Hunters simply cannot significantly cull the deer population in the US, there are too few hunters and too restrictive condition. Beyond that, suburbia is a vast playground ideal for deer, lots of shrub, lots of food, with no predators tolerated. The people living in suburbia are understandably no more comfortable with cougars or wolves than they would be with local hunters.
That leaves room for pointless feel good initiatives such as contraceptive shots for deer, which thus far have failed to have any effect because the deer are sufficiently prolific that it matters not if even a majority of the herd is rendered infertile.
It may be that opinion could change if deer are found to be a health hazard by virtue of them being a covid vector, but that reality is not currently seen as a public menace.
So by all appearances, the US is likely to see its deer excess further expanding, with no obvious boundaries other than eventual disease or starvation.
One would think that the various responsible bodies, both government and private, would aim to prevent this, but the evidence suggests that they are powerless against the 'Bambi' mindset deeply anchored in the US population.

 

[Paultricounty]

Mainly large landowners hunt here, i.e. rather well-off people, there are only very few "normal people" among them, poorer people simply cannot afford it!
In the meantime, hunting has become a trend sport for young and well-to-do city dwellers who are looking for some adventure, who then drive up in their Porsche, run a bit through the forest, shoot a few times and then back to civilization.

Abhorrent and disgusting.

Paul, I already had this discussion with Tom, the USA is not comparable to Germany, you have just 4 times as many inhabitants, but are 27 times larger!

Not getting into you and the Tom discussion. I was relating more to the US situation, seems a lot more fair and managed, and for almost anyone.

It is inevitable that forest hikers meet hunters in the hunting season, usually the hunters then try to drive the people away although it is not their right to do so.

I’m not sure how the hunters drive out the hikers by you, here we have game wardens and police that will enforce people rights to gather on state owned land, of course private land and management units are another story In most areas where people are hunting during the seasons, I kind of think that hikers at least most of them have common sense, not to be walking around in the woods during certain times in the season. Sounds to me you have more of a political and law-enforcement issue than a hunting issue.

The forest is public property and is available to every citizen, even during the hunting season, civil rights are above hunters' rights, anything else would be deprivation of liberty.

In the states not all the forests are public property. But on state land every citizen even during hunting season has the right to be there, not too sure how intelligent it would be, but that’s a whole other conversation. As far as deprivation of liberty, half the population in the United States had their civil liberties taken away from them for over a year during Covid. Let’s see if that’ll play out the same way next time.

Should our cultures be so different?

Definitely not, but I think culture is made up by your populace. I’m not sure where we’re going with this, seems to me we’re agreeing on most of the same things. Europe and the US seem to have a very different hunting philosophy and culture. I think we are agreeing on what is abhorrent.

Andreas

Paul