Different scope for birds and for stars? (1 Viewer)

[Binastro]

Post #16.

Dear Mark.

No, I am talking about refractors, Dall Kirkham, and Maksutovs.

I was pretty flexible, and as I said planets in the U.K. are on average at a maximum elevation of under 40 degrees.
In Finland an average maximum of 30 degrees.

I looked straight through.
The 12.5 inch Dall Kirkham was driven, so could be used up to 700x without a problem.
The refractors and Maksutovs mostly undriven.

My 8.5 inch Newtonian was driven.
The 14.5 inch Newtonian undriven.
6 inch Newtonian undriven.

135mm f/16 refractor driven.

The only notable occasion I used a 90 degree mirror diagonal on the Dall Kirkham was to view M81 and M82 at the zenith.
A spectacular view.
M42 is low and needs no diagonal.

All my astro work was inverted view, although Horace Dall designed his scopes for upright views with relay lenses, but he was the exception.
Basically users who use upright images are not in general ones who contribute regular observations to national or international organisations.

For terrestrial observations I used a Porroprism adapter on various scopes and also some regular spotting scopes either straight through or 45 degrees.

I don't use glasses with either telescopes or binoculars.
I have no problem with eye placement except with crazy modern binoculars with excessive eye relief.
I had no problem with 0.3mm exit pupils.
I only had problems with direct views at elevations above 60 degrees.
Above that I would use a diagonal.

Regards,
B.

 

[Binastro]

sbpbirder.

First Light Optics have a range of 1.25 inch fit multicoated Plossls 52 degree view.

£20 and £29.

I have not used these, but with a Barlow these should be quite good and inexpensive.

They say, best with f/6 or slower scopes, but maybe O.K. at f/5.5 without a Barlow.

Regards,
B.

 

[tenex]

Being realistic, a good quality ~80mm spotter with ~20-60x zoom (even if not interchangeable) will serve very well in daytime, and also be fun for the sort of casual astronomy suggested here. The field may be a bit narrow but it's easy enough to zoom out to 20x to find things. Unless you have unusually dark skies and good seeing right in your own backyard, you're unlikely to need more than this, because going anywhere else is a lot of trouble. If you do start wanting more, you're on the edge of one of the deepest rabbit holes around.

 

[sbpbirder]

Being realistic, a good quality ~80mm spotter with ~20-60x zoom (even if not interchangeable) will serve very well in daytime, and also be fun for the sort of casual astronomy suggested here. The field may be a bit narrow but it's easy enough to zoom out to 20x to find things. Unless you have unusually dark skies and good seeing right in your own backyard, you're unlikely to need more than this, because going anywhere else is a lot of trouble. If you do start wanting more, you're on the edge of one of the deepest rabbit holes around.

I wondered what all those bloody holes were! It's quite dark in places around here, we're in an AONB. I think I'll look for a scope that has a removable 1.25" EP and that will allow a bit of 'wanting' for such things as Binastro suggests.

 

[William Lewis]

Hi Spbbirder

I enjoy birdwatching on summer evenings and astronomy on winter ones. One of the joys of birdwatching is it's not weather dependent, astronomy very much is and the design of the optics reflect this, birding scopes do tend to be more waterproof.

Also while birds and stars both move - stars actually a surprising amount when viewed at high magnification you need to move to follow birds where you only need move the angle of your scope to follow stars. This means astronomy scopes can be very large and heavy where as birding scopes tend to be lighter and smaller.

Which way is up or left or right is rather a fluid concept when viewing the heavens, gravity's like that, but with terrestrial viewing there is definitely a right way up so birding scopes have a set of prisms in them to make the image the correct way up and the right way round, astronomy scopes can have this to but generally don't as it degrades the image slightly.

The sky is a vast space, difficult to navigate with the narrow field of view of a telescope - to put this in perspective the tip of your finger is roughly 1 degree of field of view if held at arms length, that fingers width is all of the sky you will see with an astronomy scope at reasonably high magnification, you'll see it very well though. Astronomy scope generally have a few other bits bolted on them to help you point that small field of view over the area you want to look at. Spotting scopes don't generally have an easy way to point them at targets in the night sky, not too bad when you know the sky very well, very frustrating if you don't!

Astronomy scopes have conventions on eye piece size, generally 1.25 inch or 2 inch and they tend to be a universal fit although they will perform very differently in different scopes Birding scopes tend to have manufacturers proprietary eye piece fittings - this has very little to do with there different uses though and a lot more to do with history and marketing!

If I were in your position I would get the best scope for what you like doing most whether that's birding or astronomy and know that it will do that as well as you can afford it to - most of its practice, time and commitment rather than investment anyway.

I would also add that very good astronomy scopes (dobsonians) are very good value if you end up wanting to do a bit more of it.

Will

 

[sbpbirder]

Thanks Will, you make star-gazing sound very enticing. I will be looking for first and foremost a birding scope. But if the choice allows then why not keep in mind that I could do a bit of (summer) night sky staring, even if I don't know what I'm seeing or where it actually is!

 

[William Lewis]

Thanks Will, you make star-gazing sound very enticing. I will be looking for first and foremost a birding scope. But if the choice allows then why not keep in mind that I could do a bit of (summer) night sky staring, even if I don't know what I'm seeing or where it actually is!

A very good plan. I've been birding for many years and used the birding scope for the stars on the odd occasion. If you pick one up soon you should still be in time for Jupiter - you can see the cloud belts through a decent spotter.

I'm not sure where your located but if you get yourself to a birdwatching shop or one of the big rspb reserves you will soon find a very good idea of what you like and don't in birding scopes. You'll probably like the £3k ones though, just as a warning!

 

[sbpbirder]

A very good plan. I've been birding for many years and used the birding scope for the stars on the odd occasion. If you pick one up soon you should still be in time for Jupiter - you can see the cloud belts through a decent spotter.

I'm not sure where your located but if you get yourself to a birdwatching shop or one of the big rspb reserves you will soon find a very good idea of what you like and don't in birding scopes. You'll probably like the £3k ones though, just as a warning!

Oooh by Jupiter! We're off to Gran Canaria in a week or so and going on an astronomy trip up in the mountains - will Jupiter be visible from there? Is that a daft question?
Of course I will like the £3k ones, I'm not daft!

 

[William Lewis]

Oooh by Jupiter! We're off to Gran Canaria in a week or so and going on an astronomy trip up in the mountains - will Jupiter be visible from there? Is that a daft question?
Of course I will like the £3k ones, I'm not daft!

Not a daft question - yes it will be, from sunset I would imagine. You might REALLY like the 3k ones though...

 

[sbpbirder]

Not a daft question - yes it will be, from sunset I would imagine.

We'll be in the same hemisphere, so I think it was slightly daft, but I'm not sure, lol. But I shall bare in mind Jupiter might be around and ask.
It is with these guys, it sounds very interesting and something I've wanted to try for ages.

Why astroGC?

The strengths of astroGC's astronomical observation workshop, our equipment and our ability to adapt to meet everyone's needs.

www.astrogc.com

 

[Binastro]

Presumably someone will have a telescope and let you look through it at Jupiter.

I visited La Palma to see comet Halley and also Tenerife.
It was so dark in Tenerife that I nearly fell into the caldera besides the observatory.
So if really dark, be careful.

I took a Celestron 5 in carry on luggage and a good 20x80 binocular plus my camera.
The Slik 88 tripod was in my suitcase.

Someone took a 6 inch Newtonian in a large case in hold luggage.

I don't know if the zodiacal light is seen at this time of year.

But the faint galaxy M33 was visible to direct vision with unaided eyes and very faint numerous meteors near the zenith.

Regards,
B.

 

[wllmspd]

If you’ve got dark skies then start with just some binoculars… there’ll be plenty of star clusters and other stuff to keep you busy. You get an overview of what’s up there, rather than just looking at a few small spots in detail, where a cheap reflector can deliver the detail with different eyepieces and maybe some filters.

Peter

 

[Mark9473]

Post #16.

Dear Mark.

No, I am talking about refractors, Dall Kirkham, and Maksutovs.

I was pretty flexible, and as I said planets in the U.K. are on average at a maximum elevation of under 40 degrees.
In Finland an average maximum of 30 degrees.

I looked straight through.

I'm in Belgium, I know about planets being low.
I totally understand that you like to view without a diagonal, but what I didn't understand is when you said most observers in the UK do so.
That's contrary to what I hear from other observers on this side of the pond.
Personally, in 40+ years of using telescopes (refractors and DK) I've only looked straight through just once or twice. When aiming low I just put the diagonal sideways.

 

[Binastro]

I am talking about serious observers who contribute very regularly to serious organisations.

The majority of owners of telescopes probably use diagonals.

There are perhaps one hundred serious observers in the U.K. , maybe one thousand worldwide.

I have nothing against people who have telescopes and enjoy them and use diagonals.

I do, however, find it amusing how owners brag about the best eyepieces, the best possible refractors etc. etc.
This is just oneupmanship and bragging and little to do with serious observing.

Some variable star observers who have made 100,000 or 200,000 submitted observations use ancient binoculars and ancient telescopes.

The planetary observers use top quality telescopes, but not necessarily expensive telescopes.
They may well use old eyepieces.

Personally my original 8mm RKE eyepiece shows fainter stars than my Naglers.
I also use old single coated Japanese orthos and Kelners.
The gain with multicoating is likely to be 0.1 magnitude.

Of course it suits telescope stores if people spend thousands on telescopes in the belief it will make them better astronomers.
It won't.

Many telescopes in fact are almost never used and end up in the attic.

A modern high quality diagonal probably hardly affects image quality.
But the diagonal may in fact not be that good.
It may flex if the wrong thickness.

Regards,
B.

 

[sbpbirder]

Presumably someone will have a telescope and let you look through it at Jupiter.

I visited La Palma to see comet Halley and also Tenerife.
It was so dark in Tenerife that I nearly fell into the caldera besides the observatory.
So if really dark, be careful.

I took a Celestron 5 in carry on luggage and a good 20x80 binocular plus my camera.
The Slik 88 tripod was in my suitcase.

Someone took a 6 inch Newtonian in a large case in hold luggage.

I don't know if the zodiacal light is seen at this time of year.

But the faint galaxy M33 was visible to direct vision with unaided eyes and very faint numerous meteors near the zenith.

Regards,
B.

Hi B

the guys at astroGC say:

"At astroGC we are using extremely wide aperture telescopes along with state of art eyepieces. We are the only company offering 16" wide aperture telescopes in Gran Canaria. This newtonian telescopes are optimized for observation due to the reduced size of the secondary mirror. The eyepieces are Super and Extra Wide Angle from 70° to 100°. We are also using 2" OIII filters."



and

"You will get involved in the workshop. We will invite to you actively take part in mounting the telescope, align it and use it. You will appreciate the earth rotation while observing with high magnification."

So I'm hoping we learn a bit and see some stuff:

'We should be able to observe:'

Slight crescent moon with raking light across relief Saturn Jupiter Andromeda galaxy Great Orion nebula Bode and cigar galaxies

We'll take our small 10x25 Swaros too, although I hope we get to hog the scope!

Best
Sbp

 

[Scott98]

FWIW, I like using small refractor telescopes for astronomy. For me having the 90-degree diagonal is essential. I can't use 45-degree ones and definitely not straight-through.

I'd much rather use a 90-degee angle diagonal for watching shorebirds than use a 45-degree angle for astronomy. Most of the good views are up at zenith, your neck will not like trying to bend to look through the 45-degree diagonal. You need to relax and be comfortable doing astronomy for your eyes to pick out the faint details in the view

 

[mbb]

Hi,

and even if the quality and or design of the scope does not allow for higher magnifications than 30 or 40x the views will be much more impressive with a wide angle astro EP of 65 degrees afov or more than looking through a thin tube with the zoom at roughly 40 deg afov...

I fully agree on that! AFOV plays an important role in the joy of pointing the scope to the night sky.
I just wonder if, money-wise, it wouldn't make more sense to invest in a good second hand MM3/MM4 Opticron spotting scope with 1 or 2 good eyepieces, new or second hand (2 fixed wide-angle eyepieces or 1 fixed wide-angle and 1 zoom) to combine the best of both worlds, without adapters, both perfectly fit and complementary for birdwatching too. Some of their (discontinued) fixed eyepieces have AFOV of 65degrees or even a little lore. Especially if it is to be used at max 30-60x anyway because of spotting scope limitations.
(Disclaimer: I have no experience with the Svbony scopes mentioned here on the forum and only have 1 fixed Opticron eyepiece for my MM4, which I both find impressive for their price, but no hands-on experience with other Opticron eyepieces. Feedback about most HDF and SDL's are very positive here though. Additional disclaimer: I know very little about astronomy and don't have astronomy focused optics. I say this from using my optics mainly for birdwatching, and having enjoyed them to contemplate the night sky too.)

 

[tenex]

On birding vs astro, bear in mind that a spotting scope isn't really designed to give very much wider field or higher magnification than the eyepiece it came with. If it's high quality you can push the magnification somewhat further with astro EPs, but its light path and sealing window are only so wide and will then vignette. Check on this forum for the limitations of your scope.