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Dorset birding (2 Viewers)

Sorry folks but I hope not, they have wiped out the entire fish population along that stretch and are now starting on local ponds, years ago I loved to see them , but now there are too many re-introductions of the non indigenous species, what will happen next, they will start on the avian population, along this stretch of river, as they have in other places along the Stour,:eek!:- I see them every weekend when I am fishing, and they are everywhere along the river. And indeed in most other rivers in the UK the same thing is happening.:eek!:

I doubt very much that the entire fish population has been wiped out. They may be efficient predators but not that efficient. It would be niave to think that otters will have no effect and it is probable that the number of fish has been reduced and this may be visible to anglers. (Especially if larger fish are taken.) Either a new steady state will develop between fish numbers and otters or the numbers of fish will become so low that the otters will move on and numbers will then increase again and otters return and the cycle be repeated. The apocalyptic view of a barren river is not going to happen.

What do you mean local ponds? Garden ponds, fishing lakes or fisheries?

The original decline in otters was the result of enviromental pesticide contamination and loss of water quality resulting in reduced fish numbers. That is the reduction of fish numbers contributed to otter decline. With improved water quality and reduced pesticide usage a natural increase in population occured driven in part by increased fish numbers. Yes, there were reintroductions (mainly East Anglia) but these stopped in 1999 due to the rate of natural recovery.

They are not non-indiginous. They are a natural part of our country's fauna. (Bring back the beaver, bear and wolf!- Sorry, only kidding) Introduction of non-indiginous species is unlawful.

The diet of Otters consists of 85-90% fish. They do also eat crayfish, amphibians, small mammals, and birds. They are not adaptable enough to move on to these as their primary food source. If there are not enough fish they will move on.

I wish I was as lucky as you to see them everywhere. We need to remember that they are a natural part of our country's ecology and have been around a lot longer than anglers!

PS I have nothing against anglers or fishing.
 
At Last a sensible reply, and not just a dig at someone who thinks the re -introduction of the otter in huge numbers will affect the balance of the rivers in our country. Go into the tackle shop in Blandford and ask home many members they have now compared to a couple of seasons ago, all due to low fish stocks, as a result of otter predation, I am not saying the fish will not return,but the balance is not natural, due to the re-introduction, and David although illegal if you you do your research like I have you will find there have been otters introduced from abroad,And they have gone on since 1999. As for the ponds, if you look in our local paper, the Blackmore Vale Magazine, the otters took all the fish from the home of a local chap, in Blandford, who had kept Koi for 30 years in his pond, they have now all gone. Sad

John "quote"
I am unafraid: your lack of understanding of basic predator prey dynamics is breathtaking. Prey control predator numbers and not the other way round.

So when the Otters wipe out the fish in the rivers,they move on to local ponds, Have I got it now?
 
At Last a sensible reply, and not just a dig at someone who thinks the re -introduction of the otter in huge numbers will affect the balance of the rivers in our country.

Nairny,
There has been no re-introduction of otters. Their reappearance has been entirely natural, due to the improved health of rivers and streams and the success of their breeding seasons.
If it were otherwise you would have a point.
As for your Koi story, that's no worse that the trouble herons cause , and you must remember that Koi are the non-indigenous species in this tale.
Chris
 
Nairny,
There has been no re-introduction of otters. Their reappearance has been entirely natural, due to the improved health of rivers and streams and the success of their breeding seasons.
If it were otherwise you would have a point.
As for your Koi story, that's no worse that the trouble herons cause , and you must remember that Koi are the non-indigenous species in this tale.
Chris

Actually, after I wrote that I did a bit of research and it seems that at times on the last 20 years otters have been reintroduced to areas in England, so i apologise for my ignorance. Does anyone know if it's happened in this case?
 
At Last a sensible reply, and not just a dig at someone who thinks the re -introduction of the otter in huge numbers will affect the balance of the rivers in our country. Go into the tackle shop in Blandford and ask home many members they have now compared to a couple of seasons ago, all due to low fish stocks, as a result of otter predation, I am not saying the fish will not return,but the balance is not natural, due to the re-introduction, and David although illegal if you you do your research like I have you will find there have been otters introduced from abroad,And they have gone on since 1999. As for the ponds, if you look in our local paper, the Blackmore Vale Magazine, the otters took all the fish from the home of a local chap, in Blandford, who had kept Koi for 30 years in his pond, they have now all gone. Sad

John "quote"
I am unafraid: your lack of understanding of basic predator prey dynamics is breathtaking. Prey control predator numbers and not the other way round.

So when the Otters wipe out the fish in the rivers,they move on to local ponds, Have I got it now?

No you haven't. Listen this time.

Otters are native predators of fish in British waterways. For millenia before our ancestors got beyond banging rocks together Otters and fish evolved together. Otters then filled all available Otter habitat and the system was overall and over very long periods of time indeed, in balance. This doesn't mean populations of various species didn't fluctuate as conditions varied with climate, erosion, far-distant volcanic eruptions and so on.

Man eventually learnt how to control his environment and how to eliminate his competitors for all the resources he now regarded as "his". By the mid twentieth century this meant Britain no longer had wolves, bears, lynx, sea eagles, Ospreys and that Otters, which under natural conditions are active intermittently 24/7, were, wherever human fishing interests and elite anti-predator psychopathy existed, turned to rare, nocturnal and actually exterminated from huge areas.

Since then the rise of science-based conservation and, reluctantly whenever the tories hold power, science-based government policy and law, have reduced persecution and allowed remnant populations of Otters to expand in numbers and territory. Ospreys returned alone. Enlightened humans re-introduced Sea Eagles. NONE OF THEM can generate populations that outgrow the resources available to them, either in terms of territory or food quantity. Also, when all Otter territories are once again filled, Otters cannot "move on" as they will come into conflict with other territorial Otters. A crash in a waterway's fish population due to a release of pollution or epidemic disease will result in Otters starving and dying. They do not carry big fat reserves and depend on regular meals.

Of course your catches will reduce, as the balance of numbers and population structure of fish species returns towards a natural balance. But they will fall to a new level, not disappear altogether.

Of course, it is also well known that predators, always seeking the easiest kill, tend to attack the very young, the very old and the weak and the sick (a bit like tories). This leads to "healthier" prey populations. It may be, for instance, that the over-fed, obese, saggy-bellied carp that grinning fishermen hold on the covers of magazines are entirely unable to defend themselves against the quicksilver attack of an adult Otter, and that the days of nonsensical carp records are numbered. Oh dear.

Otters have been reintroduced to East Anglia, where rescued British stock was rehabilitated into new areas. South coast Otters derive from South-west populations.

Finally, and this you understand is just my opinion, Otters are native animals, depend on fish and have a right to the fish in the rivers etc. You fish for a hobby, do not depend on river fish and must make do with their leftovers.

Have you got it now?

John
 
No sign of otters in Blandford, must have been eating saggy-bellied carp in all the garden ponds!!;)

At Longham Lakes a little grebe with three young is pretty conclusive proof of breeding. Not much else on the lakes, apart from lots of mute swans and 2 green woodpeckers.
Chris
 

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No sign of otters in Blandford, must have been eating saggy-bellied carp in all the garden ponds!!;)

At Longham Lakes a little grebe with three young is pretty conclusive proof of breeding. Not much else on the lakes, apart from lots of mute swans and 2 green woodpeckers.
Chris

Talking of Little Grebes, there were 2 family parties on the Decoy Pond at Morden on Monday, 1 with four chicks and 1 with 2 chicks.
 
Otters

No you haven't. Listen this time.

Otters are native predators of fish in British waterways. For millenia before our ancestors got beyond banging rocks together Otters and fish evolved together. Otters then filled all available Otter habitat and the system was overall and over very long periods of time indeed, in balance. This doesn't mean populations of various species didn't fluctuate as conditions varied with climate, erosion, far-distant volcanic eruptions and so on.

Man eventually learnt how to control his environment and how to eliminate his competitors for all the resources he now regarded as "his". By the mid twentieth century this meant Britain no longer had wolves, bears, lynx, sea eagles, Ospreys and that Otters, which under natural conditions are active intermittently 24/7, were, wherever human fishing interests and elite anti-predator psychopathy existed, turned to rare, nocturnal and actually exterminated from huge areas.

Since then the rise of science-based conservation and, reluctantly whenever the tories hold power, science-based government policy and law, have reduced persecution and allowed remnant populations of Otters to expand in numbers and territory. Ospreys returned alone. Enlightened humans re-introduced Sea Eagles. NONE OF THEM can generate populations that outgrow the resources available to them, either in terms of territory or food quantity. Also, when all Otter territories are once again filled, Otters cannot "move on" as they will come into conflict with other territorial Otters. A crash in a waterway's fish population due to a release of pollution or epidemic disease will result in Otters starving and dying. They do not carry big fat reserves and depend on regular meals.

Of course your catches will reduce, as the balance of numbers and population structure of fish species returns towards a natural balance. But they will fall to a new level, not disappear altogether.

Of course, it is also well known that predators, always seeking the easiest kill, tend to attack the very young, the very old and the weak and the sick (a bit like tories). This leads to "healthier" prey populations. It may be, for instance, that the over-fed, obese, saggy-bellied carp that grinning fishermen hold on the covers of magazines are entirely unable to defend themselves against the quicksilver attack of an adult Otter, and that the days of nonsensical carp records are numbered. Oh dear.

Otters have been reintroduced to East Anglia, where rescued British stock was rehabilitated into new areas. South coast Otters derive from South-west populations.

Finally, and this you understand is just my opinion, Otters are native animals, depend on fish and have a right to the fish in the rivers etc. You fish for a hobby, do not depend on river fish and must make do with their leftovers.

Have you got it now?

John

Perfect reply! Well done dorset guys,some people hey
 
Some of the responses to nairny have been pathetic and childish.

Paul.

Which ones? I thought in general they were a solid response to nairny's original post. Not sure why you thought they were childish or pathetic Paul, but I may have missed the point.
Chris
 
Which ones? I thought in general they were a solid response to nairny's original post. Not sure why you thought they were childish or pathetic Paul, but I may have missed the point.
Chris

I think these intro and exit comments from John were maybe unnecessary considering the rest of what he said was very well presented. But even then hardly childish or pathetic. (could have done without the politics as well but hey ho ;) )

No you haven't. Listen this time.
...

Have you got it now?


Looks like Nairny has thrown his toys out now though. Otter bashing on what is effectively an ecologically minded forum was never going to go down that well though was it.
 
Holes Bay

Wader numbers starting to increase, 300+ Redshank from Upton CP shoreline and 100+ Blackwit. 2 Spotted Redshank and 1 Whimbrel, also Curlew, Oystercatcher, Little Egret and Grey Heron. Also good numbers of Reed Warbler with young being fed and increasing numbers of Chiffchaff and Willow Warblers.
 

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Just for the record, all I did with the lead in and lead out was react to nairny's lead in and lead out. His original response was to accuse me of huge anger and to say he wasn't coming on the forum any more, but either he or the mods removed it overnight.

Perhaps the "some people" follow-on was incautious, but not only did I think it would be seen in humorous light but I believed the humourless nairny to have done a runner (it will be interesting to see if he pops up yet again now, having declared he was off!)

Thanks to those who appreciated my little peroration.

John
 
Holes bay again this morning, a nice Ruff on the outer bay by the railway bridge was a surprise, an increase in Common Sandpiper also, with 4 in their usual spot by the bridge and 1 in the inner bay on the shoreline.There were also 8 Whimbrel scattered around the bays.
 
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