JoeyVimsanteThePoet
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Grey Squirrel Picture Great Britain. (1 Viewer)
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JoeyVimsanteThePoet
Member
Are Grey squirrels normally more tame in Towns?
Hi Joey and a warm welcome to you from all the Staff and Moderators.
Sorry, I can't answer your question really, as we don't get the Grey Squirrel round here, so I don't really see them to compare their behaviour. But it sounds like they are more used to seeing people around than the squirrels in more remote country areas.
I'm sure you will enjoy it here and I look forward to hearing your news.
Sorry, I can't answer your question really, as we don't get the Grey Squirrel round here, so I don't really see them to compare their behaviour. But it sounds like they are more used to seeing people around than the squirrels in more remote country areas.
I'm sure you will enjoy it here and I look forward to hearing your news.
IamFof
Well-known member
Here in Cornwall, you will fall over the bloody tree rats, no matter what park, public garden, NT property, et al that you visit. Unfortunately the holiday makers think they are cute and hand feed them.
They have driven out our native Red as they out compete them and carry, but are immune to, the Squirrelpox virus, which is lethal to Reds.
I know it is politically incorrect to say this, but I would happily cheer on anyone who attempted to exterminate them. They are nothing more than vermin.
They have driven out our native Red as they out compete them and carry, but are immune to, the Squirrelpox virus, which is lethal to Reds.
I know it is politically incorrect to say this, but I would happily cheer on anyone who attempted to exterminate them. They are nothing more than vermin.
Is there no natural predator in Cornwall to keep them in check?
Afaik, Marten are very capable squirrel hunters, but apparently they are not common in much of the country.
IamFof
Well-known member
@etudiant.
The grey has no natural preditors in the UK, as it was introduced, from about 1870 from the USA, to "enhance" the grounds of stately homes. It was only in about 1930 that it was made illegal to release them. Trouble was, the damage had already been done.
Pine Martins and Goshawks are known to take greys, but both are rare/unknown in most of the country. The only other preditor I know of is the fox, but they can't climb trees, and often have much easier options.
The red used to be found throughout the UK, but are now restricted to parts of Scotland, Wales and some of the islands such as the Isle of Wight and Tresco in the Scilly Isles. The population on Tresco, incidentally, is not indigenous but were introduced only about 10 yrs ago.
During the 1950s the main road safety organisation introduced a road safety campaign, led by "Tufty the squirrel", aimed at children. They were that common.
The grey has no natural preditors in the UK, as it was introduced, from about 1870 from the USA, to "enhance" the grounds of stately homes. It was only in about 1930 that it was made illegal to release them. Trouble was, the damage had already been done.
Pine Martins and Goshawks are known to take greys, but both are rare/unknown in most of the country. The only other preditor I know of is the fox, but they can't climb trees, and often have much easier options.
The red used to be found throughout the UK, but are now restricted to parts of Scotland, Wales and some of the islands such as the Isle of Wight and Tresco in the Scilly Isles. The population on Tresco, incidentally, is not indigenous but were introduced only about 10 yrs ago.
During the 1950s the main road safety organisation introduced a road safety campaign, led by "Tufty the squirrel", aimed at children. They were that common.
Barred Wobbler
Well-known member
Predators can't be the answer, even though many think they are a more 'attractive solution', simply because no predator ever wipes out its food supply and a balance is reached. Unfortunately that balance leaves enough grey squirrels to infect any reds remaining in the locality.
Here in Northumberland, greys have moved in only in the past couple of decades and tragically, their impact on our reds has been immense. It's years since I saw one and I live in a village that until a little more than 10 years ago was a hotspot for the species. Greys on the other hand now infest the river valley and local woodland stands.
It's not all bad news, however, and local squirrel groups have set up trapping and shooting programmes to obliterate the greys and there are more reports coming in of woods and other areas that had fallen to the greys being cleared through a lot of concerted effort, and even better, reports show that when a wood has been cleared of greys, red squirrels will recolonise, given the opportunity, provided that there is a remnant population nearby to move in. Sadly for my particular case, our river valley is a continuous woodland strip, rather than separated blocks of woodland that can be more easily cleared.
Link to one of the local squirrel groups here.
Here in Northumberland, greys have moved in only in the past couple of decades and tragically, their impact on our reds has been immense. It's years since I saw one and I live in a village that until a little more than 10 years ago was a hotspot for the species. Greys on the other hand now infest the river valley and local woodland stands.
It's not all bad news, however, and local squirrel groups have set up trapping and shooting programmes to obliterate the greys and there are more reports coming in of woods and other areas that had fallen to the greys being cleared through a lot of concerted effort, and even better, reports show that when a wood has been cleared of greys, red squirrels will recolonise, given the opportunity, provided that there is a remnant population nearby to move in. Sadly for my particular case, our river valley is a continuous woodland strip, rather than separated blocks of woodland that can be more easily cleared.
Link to one of the local squirrel groups here.
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Grey squirrels and Red squirrels basically occupy the same ecological niche. Before the introduction of Greys into the UK Reds were mercilessly persecuted, so much so that they had to be reintroduced into the UK from continental Europe. The current narrative of "investations of nasty, introduced Greys" vs "loveable cute native Squirrel Nutkin" is basically nonsense.
Farnboro John
Well-known member
No, it basically isn't. Badgers, Foxes, Polecats, Stoats and Weasels are all persecuted but thankfully still here though the smaller mustelids are in decline: it would be much preferable even if in forestry areas control measures existed, to have Red Squirrels and not the introduced Greys (incidentally having watched their decimation and wasting of most of the hazel crop across my local area I wonder if they are also a considerable factor in Dormouse decline.)
If all you are doing is decrying the cuteness factor in all this then I agree with you but the basic premise is absolutely right: down with Greys, up the Reds.
John
IamFof
Well-known member
Yes. They were persecuted but I have never heard of this claim of their needing to be reintroduced. Please supply references.
Barred Wobbler
Well-known member
I don't agree that the fact that past persecution of native red populations in Britain to such a level that some land owners reintroduced reinforcements from European stock to rebuild the population locally negates current and future attempts to support what is officially a native species against one officially classed as vermin, which is illegal to release.
That argument also doesn't address the fact that four grey squirrels introduced into a park in Turin in 1948, and later small numbers of others in several locations have spread to such an extent that they now cover Northern Italy and have spread towards the Alps, where they could gain access to the entire Continental European population of red squirrels, with predictable outcomes. It's not just in Britain that the grey invasion is causing alarm.
Protecting mainland Europe from an invasion of grey squirrels | Imperial News | Imperial College London
Genotyping of grey squirrels sampled from Italy and the UK shows a direct link between genetic diversity and their ability to invade new environments.
www.imperial.ac.uk
EU clamps down on grey squirrels and other invasive wildlife
EU embargo on trade, possession and transport of 37 invasive species filed at the WTO, but conservationists say species omitted for commercial reasons pose a major threat to biodiversity
Red squirrel populations wiped out in northern Italy
Scientists say there are no red squirrels in a 1,150 sq km area of Piedmont after invasive greys took hold in the region
PYRTLE
Old Berkshire Boy
Probably, certainly bolder as they become used to humans offering titbits. I live in a rural area and they are far easily spooked at first sign of people and flee.
I've lived in Norfolk for over 20 years and only seen two live foxes, the others being "controlled" and displayed......a sad difference to watching a family that lived under our garden workshop when I lived in Berkshire.
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The vast majority of Red Squirrels in the UK are of continental lineage, the British subspecies is very rare indeed. This paper is old but outlines their decline and reintroduction.
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davewalters
Well-known member
FFS just a new member posting a picture and asking a harmless question.
Yes we all know how great those that believe in culling are. Try keeping your brilliance to yourselves unless asked then I won't stumble over a load of old blox by accident, again - I don't care.
Yes we all know how great those that believe in culling are. Try keeping your brilliance to yourselves unless asked then I won't stumble over a load of old blox by accident, again - I don't care.
Peregrine Took
Well-known member
Since OP didn't specify the limit to which the discussion might extend - and presumably didn't ask anyone to do it for him - I'll assume that those of us who wish to continue what is an interesting and relevant discussion, can do so.
The persecution of certain species in less enlightened times is hardly an argument for the acceptance of invasive species today.
There is no such thing as UK red squirrels. Original (for want of a better word) 'UK' red squirrels are the same genus (Sciurus vulgaris) as those reintroduced to the UK from European populations. They are all Eurasian red squirrels. From an ecological point of view, I'm not sure how it's possibly to arrive at the idea that the introduction of pox-bearing greys was anything but a bad idea, when they decimated the UK population of reds.
Likewise, the previously (and still, in some quarters) persecuted European red kite (Milvus milvus) has largely been reintroduced to the the UK from sources in Scandinavia and Spain. It is the same genus as the 'original' UK red kite.
And finally, what if we applied the argument about historical human intervention to the invasive signal crayfish, here in the UK? These are threatening not only waterborne creatures, but the very fabric of our rivers. Do we just accept them because, since the industrial revolution, we've neglected to look after our rivers?
______
On a lighter note. They're introducing pine martens to the Forest of Dean - known amusingly, as the Dean Marten (sic) - not far from me in Gloucestershire (UK). The efficacy of the reintroduction of the marten, in relation to squirrels, is that the reds are so light that they can escape it, across branches that the heavier grey cannot negotiate. The reintroduction of the marten is a perfect solution to the grey/red squirrel problem.
If only there were a natural predator (legislation and the long arm of the law is failing us) for the British gamekeeper, our eagle and kite populations might then be more secure!
In answer to the original question (I got there in the end). I'm not sure tame, so much as emboldened, is the right word for greys in cities. One once ran up the leg and arm of a friend while he was enjoying the spring sunshine and eating lunch - the squirrel made off with a decent portion of egg mayonnaise... I guess it made a change from nuts.
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IamFof
Well-known member
The major "issue" I find, is popular perception of squirrels. As I mentioned in message #4
Red Squirrels ARE cute. The Red was seen by the general population as CUTE. Any childrens story books, etc.
As the red has disappeared and replaced by grays, the poulation haven't generally noticed and CUTE just transfered to the grays. The Red had morphed into the gray in the general perception of nature.
I live near Tehidy Country Park, Cornwall where there are lots of grays, who just run up to you and accept nuts, etc, fearlessly. I just ignore them.
I will sometimes stop and enjoy watching the faces of the youngsters, full of awe and wonder, while they fed them. Talking to the adults showed me that very few had ANY knowledge about them. They were just CUTE and amazing!!! FULL STOP.
Barred Wobbler
Well-known member
Walt Disney, and more recently, almost any modern wildlife documentary, have a lot to answer for. Anthropomorphism is rife, and it's not a healthy trend, treating wild animals as if they were little people, or pets once-removed.
Peregrine Took
Well-known member
Top of my list of those guilty of anthropomorphism is Johnny Morris - younger BF members may need to do an internet search. But if we take it too seriously, the animal rights lobby will be burning copies of Wind in the Willows.
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Steve Babbs
Well-known member
If I remember correctly - and it was a long while ago - the conclusion of an essay I wrote as part of my ecology degree, which involved reading pretty well all the papers on the topic, was that competition from grey squirrels was the main cause and the spread of disease between the species very much a secondary issue but, of course, views may have changed since then.
IamFof
Well-known member
I tend to support the theory that the ability to out compete is/was a prime factor, but.in all honesty, does it really matter, in the current situation, which caused the decline?
