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HBWAlive Key; mission accomplished or mission impossible? (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Jobling
- Start date
l_raty
laurent raty
Mentioned, but said to be a "neveu par alliance" (nephew by marriage) of the deceased, not a son.
(And the second witness, Gaston Périer, who would seem to be Jean-Barthélémy's son, and should be her grandson based on the Geneanet data, declared to be unrelated to her. At first sight, this suggests Jean-Bartélémy re-married with a niece of Estelle.)
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Melanie
Well-known member
Small correction on Rudolf Emil Mell. He was from Germany (born in Gera, Thuringia, died in Berlin) and not from Austria.
https://www.hbw.com/dictionary/definition/melli-melliana-mellianus
https://www.hbw.com/dictionary/definition/melli-melliana-mellianus
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Melanie
Well-known member
I have two books with entries about Mell:
Ludwig Gebhardt: Die Ornithologen Mitteleuropas, Part III, 2005, page 59
Kraig Adler: Contributions to the History of Herpetology, 2007, page 154
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Melanie, how come you posted this change (for the better) in this particular thread? Neither melli, melliana nor mellianus were included in any of James's many lists of unexplained names (see #382-383, and backwards) ... at least not as far as I can tell. Nothing closer than melittae (in #293), and melba, of course (in #228, and in several subsequent posts) ....
However, Herr Mell's alleged Birth place Langenberg (today in Gera), Eastern Thüringen, sure looks like Germany.
Well noted!
/B
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However, Herr Mell's alleged Birth place Langenberg (today in Gera), Eastern Thüringen, sure looks like Germany.
Well noted!
/B
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Melanie
Well-known member
I have thought this would be the correct thread for fixing errors. Am I wrong?
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Nope, this is not a thread "for fixing errors", but to solve James's all unexplained eponyms and other epithets; see #1 (alt. #19), #228, #255, #267, #282, (or #382-383) ...
Fixing errors (and/or adding new or contradictory info) are what we're doing in most threads.
I just thought that Herr Mell deserved a thread of his own, as such it would have been easier for anyone to find and recognize it/him, than simply entangled in this loooooong and winding thread, particularly dealing with the most extreme of obscure names.
However; no harm done, your (fully justified) post rightfully pointed out Herr Mell's true nationality.
Well done!
Björn
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Fixing errors (and/or adding new or contradictory info) are what we're doing in most threads.
I just thought that Herr Mell deserved a thread of his own, as such it would have been easier for anyone to find and recognize it/him, than simply entangled in this loooooong and winding thread, particularly dealing with the most extreme of obscure names.
However; no harm done, your (fully justified) post rightfully pointed out Herr Mell's true nationality.
Well done!
Björn
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Anna's (Palau) Bush-Warbler
After having had a look at some of the birds connected to Mr. Kubary (in the recent thread Kubary's three (or four) birds (here), let's return to the old and lengthy search for the unknown Anna, in the Palau Bush-Warbler (Cettia) Horornis annae HARTLAUB & FINSCH 1868 (OD in #221), from the very first two lists of names (in this thread), out of James's Key, with either the phrase; Dedication not given alt. Etymology undiscovered (see post #1, alt./or #19) ...
As I (still) haven't found any trace of the/a possible Finsch-Wychodil child by the name Anna (see posts #221,223-224), I simply changed direction, in trying to find the missing dedicatee, and in doing so I happened to find a separate Richmond Card (I´ve never seen such a card before!) – a special card dealing only with "Etymology" ... and it is regarding this particular annae bird!
That (single, odd) Richmond Card says (if I read those scribbled notes properly):
First, I hope we can all agree on that Anna's husband, the "Johann Stanislaus Kubary" [on the Richmond Card alt. in German texts (or/and a k a "John", in some English dittos)] is equal of the Polish collector Jan Stanisław Kubary (1846–1896), as in today's Key (quote below):
Though I do see the reason for the Key's phrase; "or, doubtfully, ..." versus Richmond's more positive choice of word "Probably ...".
To me it looks like Anna Kubary hardly could be the dedicatee, in spite of (contrary to) any, (whatever) likelihood, presented by "Michael Grayson in litt" (mentioned in the Key's quote above), or on the Richmond card.
The fascinating piece (well worth the read) referred to on the Richmond card, regarding "Mrs. Anna", a k a "Mrs. Kubary" is found in The National geographic Magazine, from 1921 (here), pp.599-603; Heading "MEETING THE WIDOW OF A FAMOUS SCIENTIST" (though it does start a bit prior to that). From this piece [it's the same paper pointed at by Mark and Martin (post #3 and #4) in the Kubary thread], dated "Spring of 1921" (on p.590) and from the part; "now she was 56... " we can tell that this Anna was born in about 1865. And, according to herself; "... 14 years old when I married Mr. Kubary."
If so, she was only a child when Hartlaub and Finsch described (and coined the name) "Psamathia annæ", in 1868, probably all unknown to her future husband, Mr Kubary who, at that point, was still far, far away ... from both Pulau/Palau/Ponapé/Pohnpei and any other Pacific Islands (as I understand it he didn't leave Europe until 1869).
I would even dare to say (if all of the above is correct, of course) that she undoubtedly isn't the one commemorated in this Bush-Warbler.
Anyone who disagree?
Björn
PS. James, either way, even if she's commemorated or not (in any bird?) compare the entry for kubaryi where you have Mrs Anna Kubary "née Yelliott" as "(fl. 1896) " versus "(d. 1937)" in the entry for annae. Shouldn't it be the same in both entries? It's apparently the same lady.
PPS. Regarding Mrs Kubary's Birth year I assume it will be very hard to find, as she was the daughter of an American missionary and his Micronesian wife, but who knows, it might be "out there", somewhere ... ? Also note the different versions of Anna's alleged Maiden name; "Yeliot" vs "Yelliott "... !? The National Geograpic uses "Yeliot" (single ending-t).
Also see here, where her Father (again) was mentioned as "Alec Yeliot". Possibly a clue to find her Birth year? Either way; I couldn't find him at all, at least not in Baltimore, Maryland, USA.
Anyone luckier?
--
After having had a look at some of the birds connected to Mr. Kubary (in the recent thread Kubary's three (or four) birds (here), let's return to the old and lengthy search for the unknown Anna, in the Palau Bush-Warbler (Cettia) Horornis annae HARTLAUB & FINSCH 1868 (OD in #221), from the very first two lists of names (in this thread), out of James's Key, with either the phrase; Dedication not given alt. Etymology undiscovered (see post #1, alt./or #19) ...
As I (still) haven't found any trace of the/a possible Finsch-Wychodil child by the name Anna (see posts #221,223-224), I simply changed direction, in trying to find the missing dedicatee, and in doing so I happened to find a separate Richmond Card (I´ve never seen such a card before!) – a special card dealing only with "Etymology" ... and it is regarding this particular annae bird!
That (single, odd) Richmond Card says (if I read those scribbled notes properly):
First, I hope we can all agree on that Anna's husband, the "Johann Stanislaus Kubary" [on the Richmond Card alt. in German texts (or/and a k a "John", in some English dittos)] is equal of the Polish collector Jan Stanisław Kubary (1846–1896), as in today's Key (quote below):
Though I do see the reason for the Key's phrase; "or, doubtfully, ..." versus Richmond's more positive choice of word "Probably ...".
To me it looks like Anna Kubary hardly could be the dedicatee, in spite of (contrary to) any, (whatever) likelihood, presented by "Michael Grayson in litt" (mentioned in the Key's quote above), or on the Richmond card.
The fascinating piece (well worth the read) referred to on the Richmond card, regarding "Mrs. Anna", a k a "Mrs. Kubary" is found in The National geographic Magazine, from 1921 (here), pp.599-603; Heading "MEETING THE WIDOW OF A FAMOUS SCIENTIST" (though it does start a bit prior to that). From this piece [it's the same paper pointed at by Mark and Martin (post #3 and #4) in the Kubary thread], dated "Spring of 1921" (on p.590) and from the part; "now she was 56... " we can tell that this Anna was born in about 1865. And, according to herself; "... 14 years old when I married Mr. Kubary."
If so, she was only a child when Hartlaub and Finsch described (and coined the name) "Psamathia annæ", in 1868, probably all unknown to her future husband, Mr Kubary who, at that point, was still far, far away ... from both Pulau/Palau/Ponapé/Pohnpei and any other Pacific Islands (as I understand it he didn't leave Europe until 1869).
I would even dare to say (if all of the above is correct, of course) that she undoubtedly isn't the one commemorated in this Bush-Warbler.
Anyone who disagree?
Björn
PS. James, either way, even if she's commemorated or not (in any bird?) compare the entry for kubaryi where you have Mrs Anna Kubary "née Yelliott" as "(fl. 1896) " versus "(d. 1937)" in the entry for annae. Shouldn't it be the same in both entries? It's apparently the same lady.
PPS. Regarding Mrs Kubary's Birth year I assume it will be very hard to find, as she was the daughter of an American missionary and his Micronesian wife, but who knows, it might be "out there", somewhere ... ? Also note the different versions of Anna's alleged Maiden name; "Yeliot" vs "Yelliott "... !? The National Geograpic uses "Yeliot" (single ending-t).
Also see here, where her Father (again) was mentioned as "Alec Yeliot". Possibly a clue to find her Birth year? Either way; I couldn't find him at all, at least not in Baltimore, Maryland, USA.
Anyone luckier?
--
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Mrs. Anna Kubary continuation
Also see this blog post (from 16 April, 2018):
Sweet Island Love
Ciekawostki o Kubarym (all in Polish); here, with a Photo (attached) of; "Yelirt, Kubary's Ponapean wife in the year 1882"... !? It's the same Photo shown in Martin's link in Post #2 (in the Kubary thread).
Anyone who does understand Polish?
Either way; I sure don't.
/B
PS. By the look of the Photo (from 1882), she must have been very, very young in 1868 (when the/this annae bird was described).
Mr. Kubary married her in 1877, and she died in 1937 (according to Deutsche Biographie, here)
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Also see this blog post (from 16 April, 2018):
Sweet Island Love
Ciekawostki o Kubarym (all in Polish); here, with a Photo (attached) of; "Yelirt, Kubary's Ponapean wife in the year 1882"... !? It's the same Photo shown in Martin's link in Post #2 (in the Kubary thread).Now we've suddenly got; Anna Yelirt/Yeliot/Yelliot/Yelliott/Jelliotte ... !?! Sigh.
Anyone who does understand Polish?
Either way; I sure don't.
/B
PS. By the look of the Photo (from 1882), she must have been very, very young in 1868 (when the/this annae bird was described).
Mr. Kubary married her in 1877, and she died in 1937 (according to Deutsche Biographie, here)
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Attachments
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
End of Anna ... ?
No reply, or any response, in three weeks, thereby ... here's a last futile attempt (on my part, that is) on the missing Anna (in annae), a somewhat hobbling (final?) conclusion, or, if nothing else, some sort of summary (closure?) of a seemingly insoluble case.
As far as I can tell, the obscure Anna in the Palau Bush-Warbler (Cettia) Horornis annae HARTLAUB & FINSCH 1868 is still a mystery. And she will probably remain so ... ?
This far, I would say/guess (and agree, with the Key) that there´s a better chance to find the dedicatee in connection to " ... Hartlaub or Finsch, or of the magnate Godeffroy" [even if there's no Anna found in the Geni entry for Mr. Hartlaub (here)]. The closest we've got, this far, would/could be Godeffroy's mother-in-law, (see Martin's post #222), ... but with no dedication what-so-ever (and with no obvious links, at least not that I know of, to Natural History, on her part) I think it's hard to tell either way. It could be her, or not? Or simply yet another, a completely different Anna, still all unknown, still lurking in the shades.
Well, that it, I cannot reach any further. I've tried my best. I´m done.
The (for me) untraceable Anna ... over and out!
Good luck finding her.
Björn
PS. From what I can tell, this far (and for whatever it's worth); I don't think Mrs Anna Kubary was/is commemorated in any bird/name (neither in annae nor in kubaryi). However, as always: don't hesitate to prove me wrong!
Either way; I´m sure glad Mrs Kubary isn't "one of mine" (sorting out, finding her Birth, and true Maiden name, looks like a nightmare)!
No reply, or any response, in three weeks, thereby ... here's a last futile attempt (on my part, that is) on the missing Anna (in annae), a somewhat hobbling (final?) conclusion, or, if nothing else, some sort of summary (closure?) of a seemingly insoluble case.
As far as I can tell, the obscure Anna in the Palau Bush-Warbler (Cettia) Horornis annae HARTLAUB & FINSCH 1868 is still a mystery. And she will probably remain so ... ?
This far, I would say/guess (and agree, with the Key) that there´s a better chance to find the dedicatee in connection to " ... Hartlaub or Finsch, or of the magnate Godeffroy" [even if there's no Anna found in the Geni entry for Mr. Hartlaub (here)]. The closest we've got, this far, would/could be Godeffroy's mother-in-law, (see Martin's post #222), ... but with no dedication what-so-ever (and with no obvious links, at least not that I know of, to Natural History, on her part) I think it's hard to tell either way. It could be her, or not? Or simply yet another, a completely different Anna, still all unknown, still lurking in the shades.
Well, that it, I cannot reach any further. I've tried my best. I´m done.
The (for me) untraceable Anna ... over and out!
Good luck finding her.
Björn
PS. From what I can tell, this far (and for whatever it's worth); I don't think Mrs Anna Kubary was/is commemorated in any bird/name (neither in annae nor in kubaryi). However, as always: don't hesitate to prove me wrong!
Either way; I´m sure glad Mrs Kubary isn't "one of mine" (sorting out, finding her Birth, and true Maiden name, looks like a nightmare)!
JustinJansen
Well-known member
Anna (Yelirt) Kubary was the daughter from Alexander Yelirt (Scheps 2005: 121) and a native woman from Ponape, she became the wife of Johann Stanislaus Kubary (1846-1896) working for Godeffroy firm in 1877 (Scheps 2005: 124). Think she is the Anna discussed (born 1863-x). See also here, and here and here.
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Thanks, Justin :t:
Anna (Yelirt) Kubary certainly is the one discussed, even if she isn't the missing (much sought-after) dedicatee we're looking for. If she was born either in 1863 (or 1865, see #450), she could hardly be the Anna in (Cettia) Horornis annae HARTLAUB & FINSCH 1868.
At that point Kubary couldn't even have known of her existence. Neither would Hartlaub & Finsch ...
But thanks for pointing out the correct spelling of her Maiden name (hopefully Birgit Scheps knows what she's talking about).
/B
Anna (Yelirt) Kubary certainly is the one discussed, even if she isn't the missing (much sought-after) dedicatee we're looking for. If she was born either in 1863 (or 1865, see #450), she could hardly be the Anna in (Cettia) Horornis annae HARTLAUB & FINSCH 1868.
At that point Kubary couldn't even have known of her existence. Neither would Hartlaub & Finsch ...
But thanks for pointing out the correct spelling of her Maiden name (hopefully Birgit Scheps knows what she's talking about
). /B
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Quick one ...
Though note that the web-page Beachcombers, Traders & Castaways in Micronesia (here) lists Mrs Kubary's Father as 'Ale ander Yellot' [sic], which ought to be a typo/error for Alexander ...
Sigh! Anna Yelirt/Yeliot/Yelliot/Yelliott/Jelliotte/Yellot/Zolliot/Zellet ... it seems like every time I search for her I simply end up with new versions of her Maiden name. I give up. Either way (however it's written), Justin, I agree, if she was "... 14 years old ..." (according to herself) when she married Mr Kubary" in 1877, a Birth year of "1863" would be a better match (... and, in any case, she died in 1937).
But, in my opinion, she had/has nothing to do with the Palau Bush-Warbler (Cettia) Horornis annae [and she probably wasn't commemorated even in the invalid Kookaburra "Sauromarptis kubaryi" (A.B.) MEYER 1890 (as claimed by the Key), see thread Kubary's three (or four) birds (here)].
We'd better look elsewhere for the missing Anna in the Bush-warbler ... (not necessarily even in Micronesia).
Good luck!
/B
--
Though note that the web-page Beachcombers, Traders & Castaways in Micronesia (here) lists Mrs Kubary's Father as 'Ale ander Yellot' [sic], which ought to be a typo/error for Alexander ...
The same page also incl. his Daughter "Anna Yellot", in the entry for "John S. Kubary" (i.e. the latter's 'English' name).
Sigh! Anna Yelirt/Yeliot/Yelliot/Yelliott/Jelliotte/Yellot/Zolliot/Zellet ... it seems like every time I search for her I simply end up with new versions of her Maiden name. I give up. Either way (however it's written), Justin, I agree, if she was "... 14 years old ..." (according to herself) when she married Mr Kubary" in 1877, a Birth year of "1863" would be a better match (... and, in any case, she died in 1937).
But, in my opinion, she had/has nothing to do with the Palau Bush-Warbler (Cettia) Horornis annae [and she probably wasn't commemorated even in the invalid Kookaburra "Sauromarptis kubaryi" (A.B.) MEYER 1890 (as claimed by the Key), see thread Kubary's three (or four) birds (here)].
We'd better look elsewhere for the missing Anna in the Bush-warbler ... (not necessarily even in Micronesia).
Good luck!
/B
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JustinJansen
Well-known member
You are right Bjorn, she could not be the Anna.... Two type specimens are still in Bremen (no's 7949, 7950), but as any other collection at this moment they are unaccessible.
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Just a guess. Was ever Capitaine Alfred Tetens considered in context with annae? It might be worth tho look into Vom Schiffsjungen zum Wasserschout: Erinnerungen aus der Leben des Capitäns Alfred Tetens.
As Tetens met Dr. Karl Gottfried Semper (1832-1893) in Palau maybe Anna Hermann (b. 1828) (at lest his fiancee) here can be considered?
If correct he married her here:
Confirmed by here.
On page earlier:
here as
As Tetens met Dr. Karl Gottfried Semper (1832-1893) in Palau maybe Anna Hermann (b. 1828) (at lest his fiancee) here can be considered?
If correct he married her here:
Confirmed by here.
On page earlier:
here as
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
"Psamathia Annae, H. & F."
Good work and well found, Martin, I think you're on to something. I'd say that the German Phrase "Diese interessante von Capitain Tetens entdeckte Art ...", by Otto Finsch himself, makes the wife of Mr Tetens the best candidate this far!
She's, within reason, the most probable, likely dedicatee I've seen this far. :t:
Though, if it truly was aimed at her I cannot tell.
Keep digging!
/B
PS. Note (if relevant?) that she seems to have been commemorated in the debated mollusc (slug) "Helix (callicochlias) Annæ" SEMPER 1862 (here), most of it in German, and some Latin: "... , in honorem dicatam esse volo Dominæ Annæ Herrmann, ...". Also mentioned here (in text, top of page), all in German.
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Good work and well found, Martin, I think you're on to something. I'd say that the German Phrase "Diese interessante von Capitain Tetens entdeckte Art ...", by Otto Finsch himself, makes the wife of Mr Tetens the best candidate this far!
She's, within reason, the most probable, likely dedicatee I've seen this far. :t:
Though, if it truly was aimed at her I cannot tell.
Keep digging!
/B
PS. Note (if relevant?) that she seems to have been commemorated in the debated mollusc (slug) "Helix (callicochlias) Annæ" SEMPER 1862 (here), most of it in German, and some Latin: "... , in honorem dicatam esse volo Dominæ Annæ Herrmann, ...". Also mentioned here (in text, top of page), all in German.
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James Jobling
Well-known member
Mission accomplished, but not as I would have wished it. The wailing and gnashing of teeth echo throughout East Sussex. At 1500hrs BST this afternoon, just as I had finished the entry for palaeocrispus, the HBWAlive Key site finally closed when the HBWAlive site transferred across to Cornell. Presently, there is no news from Cornell regarding the future of the Key, although they have expressed the sincere wish to use and develop it.
I take this opportunity to sincerely thank all those BirdForum readers who have contributed to the Key since 2014, and especially to those aficionados Björn Bergenholtz, Laurent Raty, Martin Schneider, Mark Brown and Fred Ruhe whose enthusiasm and willingness to research and share information has been boundless.
I have the Key in MS (probably to be renamed the New Key or The Key) and shall still enjoy and participate in correspondence here.
Thank you all again. Stay safe and well.
James
I take this opportunity to sincerely thank all those BirdForum readers who have contributed to the Key since 2014, and especially to those aficionados Björn Bergenholtz, Laurent Raty, Martin Schneider, Mark Brown and Fred Ruhe whose enthusiasm and willingness to research and share information has been boundless.
I have the Key in MS (probably to be renamed the New Key or The Key) and shall still enjoy and participate in correspondence here.
Thank you all again. Stay safe and well.
James
janvanderbrugge
Well-known member
Earlier this day I expressed my distress in the reaction given below, in the thread of Martin Schneider's last post. I repeat it here, because answers appeared already and although there is no reason for shouting yet, I feel somewhat better: no one has written: that was it, I quit and will go looking for other activities . . .
James, I am sure the admiration for all your endeavours and immense input in your Key is flawless, and we would be ingrateful indeed if we would not keep you bound to your words "shall still enjoy and participate in correspondence here". So the Key in reborn version can remain a challenge and a proof of the enthusiasm for keeping it alive (i.e. as long as the International BirdForum will support our subforum, I won't get too lyric).
I tried to invent a positive companion for the Dramatornis born this afternoon:
Elephantornis (syn. Neonatavis) inviolabilis joblingii Hail to the newborn "joint-venture"!
Jan van (fan !!!) der Brugge, 21.15 PM
Dramatornis irreparabilis taphrospili . . . (dusky subspecies of a raptor)
At 16.50h this afternoon (May, 11) my activity of copying some eponyms from the HBW Alive Key came to an abrupt end. The gloomy thought arose that Martin's (Taphrospilus) message of this afternoon might be the last sign of eponymical intercourse, unless one is prepared to sign in to online sources for payment. I am not, right now. I prefer to wait for any comment on James Jobling's part and comforting or reassuring words from my subforum mates.
The usual Cheers and Enjoy seem out of place.
Jan van der Brugge, 17.00 PM
James, I am sure the admiration for all your endeavours and immense input in your Key is flawless, and we would be ingrateful indeed if we would not keep you bound to your words "shall still enjoy and participate in correspondence here". So the Key in reborn version can remain a challenge and a proof of the enthusiasm for keeping it alive (i.e. as long as the International BirdForum will support our subforum, I won't get too lyric).
I tried to invent a positive companion for the Dramatornis born this afternoon:
Elephantornis (syn. Neonatavis) inviolabilis joblingii Hail to the newborn "joint-venture"!
Jan van (fan !!!) der Brugge, 21.15 PM
Dramatornis irreparabilis taphrospili . . . (dusky subspecies of a raptor)
At 16.50h this afternoon (May, 11) my activity of copying some eponyms from the HBW Alive Key came to an abrupt end. The gloomy thought arose that Martin's (Taphrospilus) message of this afternoon might be the last sign of eponymical intercourse, unless one is prepared to sign in to online sources for payment. I am not, right now. I prefer to wait for any comment on James Jobling's part and comforting or reassuring words from my subforum mates.
The usual Cheers and Enjoy seem out of place.
Jan van der Brugge, 17.00 PM