Hen Harrier "quota" a win-win solution say researchers (6 Viewers)

[KnockerNorton]

"When I use the word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I chose it to mean – neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, " whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be the master – that’s all."​

Carroll, L. (1871) 'Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There'

was there a harrier in that, playing tennis in a tutu or something?

 

[dantheman]

Interesting thread (just waded through it!), if a little predictable at times ( ).
Does seem to be a bit bogged down on this one (although that can be good for biodiversity of course . . ).

So, instead of a quota of Hen Harriers (original subject matter I believe . . .), why not introduce a quota (or better yet a cull) on rich City banker* types??

This could be implemented by eg

a)Recession. Would probably hit everyone else as well, and probably mention of the 'R' word a bit of a taboo. May happen anyway . . .

b)The new sport of chasing overweight city over-earners minus their britches (and with or without whippy birch sprigs) over heather moorland. Would surely appeal to many conservationally minded souls around these isles . . . (outside the breeding season of course).

c)A large levy on all financial institutions, petroleum companies etc which would be returned to the masses (a la Robin Hood stylee), or used to fund . .wait for it . . conservation projects such as sensitive management of the environments and wildlife habitats such as upland moorlands . . .

Yes? No? Maybe???!!!

*(note the use of the letter 'b' )

 

[Farnboro John]

Pains me to say I agree with knocker Norton here

I spend many days walking on grouse moors, and just accept that if these people didn't manage the land it wouldn't be there. It would be a golf course or something else. There's plenty of other stuff sucj as stonechat and twite that also use the land, and other raptors are doing okish. Not sure what the ansers are, but just cos we like harriers (and it is ilegal) doesn't mean that banning grouse shooting is an answer. Maybe if black grouse were good game there would be loads of them too.

Interesting side note here about Black Grouse: talking to shooters in Western Scotland a few years ago they blamed the decline of Black Grouse on "idiots" running Pheasants on Black Grouse habitat, at insupportable densities that (a) caused competition for food and nest sites (?) (b) introduced and kept at a high level fatal diseases and (c) provided predators with an additional biomass to exploit, maintaining them at a level where they had a disproprortionate effect on the BGs. They were fed up with this as Pheasants are not as good sport as BGs and not native.

I don't say they were necessarily right in all particulars but the perspective is different to what some might expect.

John

 

[Jos Stratford]

depends on how big the heath fragment is (most lowland heaths are fragments and therefore tend to burn in totality, not little bits at a time), and when the fire is (summer is obviously bad for a fragment with vulnerable rare breeding species that are restricted to that fragment). Under natural conditions it would be occasional lightning strikes on extensive heaths, where it would burn itself out quite quickly due to limited fuel. But now all lowland heaths are highly fragmented and also haven't been burnt for a long while, so there is a lot of fuel and the potential for soil damage/peat catching light. So you can end up burning an entire small heath as opposed to bits of a large heath.

Well, have to agree with that - in cases of entire heaths burning out, with loss of most of the species on that 'island', the news can't be good - but still unless management through fire or scrub removal is conducted, then a fragmented heath is slowly going to revert to forest, wouldn't you say?

 

[KnockerNorton]

Interesting side note here about Black Grouse: talking to shooters in Western Scotland a few years ago they blamed the decline of Black Grouse on "idiots" running Pheasants on Black Grouse habitat, at insupportable densities that (a) caused competition for food and nest sites (?) (b) introduced and kept at a high level fatal diseases and (c) provided predators with an additional biomass to exploit, maintaining them at a level where they had a disproprortionate effect on the BGs. They were fed up with this as Pheasants are not as good sport as BGs and not native.

I don't say they were necessarily right in all particulars but the perspective is different to what some might expect.

John

Research has shown that it's the grazing regime in Black Grouse habitat. They're quite picky, apparently, and modern sheep densities don't suit them.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Well, have to agree with that - in cases of entire heaths burning out, with loss of most of the species on that 'island', the news can't be good - but still unless management through fire or scrub removal is conducted, then a fragmented heath is slowly going to revert to forest, wouldn't you say?

yes, I would, although the manual pulling up of birch and other methods are trying to replace it, it seems. The problem with fire is that it looks bad, and it needs to be done carefully, and the possibility of it getting out of control and spreading to commuter belt housing in the south is probably scaring the hell out of most managers.

 

[Farnboro John]

Research has shown that it's the grazing regime in Black Grouse habitat. They're quite picky, apparently, and modern sheep densities don't suit them.

Yeah but this was in non-sheep deer raising area. I agree they are picky and that they need mixed habitats, especially forest edge of differing ages and open bogginess.

John

 

[KnockerNorton]

Yeah but this was in non-sheep deer raising area. I agree they are picky and that they need mixed habitats, especially forest edge of differing ages and open bogginess.

John

you mean there were no sheep but they were raising deer, or no sheep and no deer? Deer grazing/browsing can be just as bad as sheep.

 

[Allen S. Moore]

Pains me to say I agree with knocker Norton here

I spend many days walking on grouse moors, and just accept that if these people didn't manage the land it wouldn't be there. It would be a golf course or something else. There's plenty of other stuff sucj as stonechat and twite that also use the land, and other raptors are doing okish. Not sure what the ansers are, but just cos we like harriers (and it is ilegal) doesn't mean that banning grouse shooting is an answer. Maybe if black grouse were good game there would be loads of them too.

I would also like to agree with KnockerNorton on this (and you, too, Marcus - hallo there!). Management of heather moorland is practiced here in the Isle of Man by amateurs rather than by the staff of big shooting estates, of which there are none, although I have a vague recollection of there being a shooting syndicate. Moorland in the hills is owned by the Manx government, and its management is regulated by officials of a government department. Each block of moorland has both shooting and grazing tenants, and the former burn small strips to try to encourage the small red grouse population. These small burnt strips are also good for choughs, which sometimes gather to feed on invertebrates within hours of a burn. To me, that is enhancing the biodiversity, as it provides yet another food source for this great European bird.

Allen

 

[dantheman]

Not forgetting that burning in this manner is going to be more or less a natural sustainable process; the carbon released into the atmosphere is balanced by that removed (sequestered??) from the atmosphere and stored in the new growth and future woody stems. Shame the energy can't be harnessed I guess. (Cutting it to burn for private heating or small scale wood burning power stations etc would be one way, but then there's the C footprint of the forage harvesters whatever used in cutting it . . could be done though, possibly??)

 

[KnockerNorton]

Not forgetting that burning in this manner is going to be more or less a natural sustainable process; the carbon released into the atmosphere is balanced by that removed (sequestered??) from the atmosphere and stored in the new growth and future woody stems.

unless it burns the peat, which is the risk. But talk of carbon in relation to moor burns is a little ridiculous, to be honest, when you consider the scale of that against the 2 coal-fired power stations being built each week in China.

 

[Farnboro John]

you mean there were no sheep but they were raising deer, or no sheep and no deer? Deer grazing/browsing can be just as bad as sheep.

No sheep, loads of deer present. Probably fewer now since I gather some 76000 red deer were culled in the last couple of years to make up for the absence of top predators in Scotland (apart of course from the hairless ape).

Agree deer can be fairly damaging. Good job they taste nice.

John