Introduce species to tick or not to tick. (1 Viewer)

[Farnboro John]

This seems like a rather hard line to me. Ospreys were well recorded as a breeding bird in England generally, even if there are no fossilised nests or the like in the Rutland area. They were therefore a general part of the ecosystem of lakes in England, so would have lived at Rutland Water if there had been a Rutland Water. The purpose of reintroductions is to restore the ecosystem to what it should be, and the ecosystem of a big lake in central England should have Ospreys. Given how slowly the blighters are repopulating the isles from the north, reintroduction makes some sense.

Reintroductions are supposed to be reserved for situations where natural repopulation is thought unlikely, not just slow. The whole "must have it now" thing is a hangover from Thatcherism. And an introduced lake is not the most appropriate place to do one, either!

John

 

[Farnboro John]

This seems like a rather hard line to me. Ospreys were well recorded as a breeding bird in England generally, even if there are no fossilised nests or the like in the Rutland area. They were therefore a general part of the ecosystem of lakes in England, so would have lived at Rutland Water if there had been a Rutland Water. The purpose of reintroductions is to restore the ecosystem to what it should be, and the ecosystem of a big lake in central England should have Ospreys. Given how slowly the blighters are repopulating the isles from the north, reintroduction makes some sense.

Reintroductions are supposed to be reserved for situations where natural repopulation is thought unlikely, not just slow. The whole "must have it now" thing is a hangover from Thatcherism.

And an introduced lake is not the most appropriate place to do one, either!

John

 

[ColinD]

This seems like a rather hard line to me. Ospreys were well recorded as a breeding bird in England generally, even if there are no fossilised nests or the like in the Rutland area. They were therefore a general part of the ecosystem of lakes in England, so would have lived at Rutland Water if there had been a Rutland Water. The purpose of reintroductions is to restore the ecosystem to what it should be, and the ecosystem of a big lake in central England should have Ospreys. Given how slowly the blighters are repopulating the isles from the north, reintroduction makes some sense.

I can't see any justification for the re-introduction of Ospreys at Rutland Water. The bird is not threatened either Globally or nationally, it has naturally spread into England and Wales in the past few years anyway and numbers are generally increasing. As a migrant species it had plenty of opportunity to breed at RW if it wanted to. The whole thing is just a publicity stunt in my opinion.

 

[rob stoff]

I think there were some subfossil remains found that suggest that they have lived in Britain in the past. Can anyone confirm this?

there are subfossil remains of Hippos too

Rob

 

[rob stoff]

Reintroductions are supposed to be reserved for situations where natural repopulation is thought unlikely, not just slow. The whole "must have it now" thing is a hangover from Thatcherism. And an introduced lake is not the most appropriate place to do one, either!

John

couldn't agree more, money and resources woould have been much better spent elsewhere.

Rob

 

[Ilya Maclean]

I'd tend to go with the BOU Cat C guidelines - i.e. self-sustaining populations of introductions/re-introductions are OK to tick.

I wonder how long it will be before we can tick Black Swans, or whether e.g. Muscovy Duck or Chickens for that matter, come close?

 

[MKinHK]

In Hong Kong we have a special category for re-introduced species which have become re-esablished through deliberate release (for religious purposes) or by escape. Almost all of these are babblers:

Vinous-throated Parrotbill
Rufous-capped Babbler
Red-billed Lieothrix
Streak-breasted Scimitar Babbler
Greater Necklaced Laughingthrush
Black-throated Laughingthrush
White-browed Laughingthrush
Chinese Babax (died out again)
Yellow-cheeked Tit

We have the same grief over the garbage - introductions through the same sources of genuinely extralimital species:

Velvet-fronted Nuthatch
Blue-winged Minla
Silver-eared Mesia
Black-throated Tit (died out)
Chestnut Munia (died out)
Baya Weaver (died out)
Common Myna
Yellow-crested Cockatoo (but of major conservation relevance as largest free-flying population anywhere)
Rose-ringed Parakeet
Rock Dove

HK birders have traditionally counted A-C, but there is a trend of including Cat D (which I do for the purposes of my HK list on BF, but I feel uncomfortable about the Ds.

Likely candidates for cat D:

Azure-winged Magpie (not the Iberian one)
House Crow (but being vigourously controlled)

Its interesting that four supposedly established species from these categories have disappeared again and that two are also under discussion for the UK.

Of the UK species mentioned Common Pheasant is a local extinction with the odd market bird escaping, and we get both wild and escaped Mandarins (which is not that rare - there are lots in Central China) to keep the records committee on their toes

Cheers
Mike

 

[RobinD]

The discussion about the Osprey project at Rutland and I could add the various Red Kite projects is an interesting one. To a greater extent both of these projects are publicity stunts but is that necessarily a bad thing? Both projects have engendered a great deal of local interest and pride in the restored species. The result of this is more people caring about their local wildlife.
I am basing this on discussions with collegues, leading wildlife walks, volunteering for habitat restoration (not just conservation) and giving talks to children.

So, I agree that these projects may not have been necessary in a global sense (sadly probabally very crucial for the Kite) but I would disagree they are a waste of money.

We seem to have gone rather off topic. Like most people, I follow the BOU rules on my official list and have category A and C Kites, Ospreys and WT Eagle but I certainly note the random assortment of escapes and potential Cat C species I have seen. Ultimately, it's your list...

I see Kites every day and they always captivate me whatever category you put them in!

ATB

Robin

 

[Mark Grantham]

I'm with you on this (for my British list at least). If the BOU accept it, I accept it.

My world list is a different question entirely, and I only tick species in their natural range and (as far as possible) free from man's 'direct' intervention. Direct meaning released/re-released, rather than just a nestbox scheme or a helping hand with some food. So I haven't world ticked Mandarin Duck, Pheasant and Ring-necked Parakeet, and have only ticked Canada Goose in the US, Little Owl on the Continent (but those really grey birds we used to catch at Landguard Bird Obs in October were interesting...), Capercaillie and Goshawk in Scandinavia (the latter just to be safe, as there so many birds in the UK that might be derived from falconer's birds).

Mark G

if it is cat C BOU then i tick it, therefore: Golden Pheasant, Little Owl, Capercaille YES... Wood Duck, Monk Parakeet, tagged Great Bustard NO

 

[Lawts]

This seems like a rather hard line to me. Ospreys were well recorded as a breeding bird in England generally, even if there are no fossilised nests or the like in the Rutland area. They were therefore a general part of the ecosystem of lakes in England, so would have lived at Rutland Water if there had been a Rutland Water. The purpose of reintroductions is to restore the ecosystem to what it should be, and the ecosystem of a big lake in central England should have Ospreys. Given how slowly the blighters are repopulating the isles from the north, reintroduction makes some sense.

The debate was about ticking though and not the merits of re-introduction. For ticking purposes they and other such birds are pretty plastic for life (probably year list as well) purposes.

The exception for me is Red Kite where all Yorkshire birders and authorities accept the re-introduced birds so I'd be fighting against a pro-tick tide, so i count them.

But, Corncrakes, Cirl Buntings, Cranes, White-tailed eagles - glad I've got 'em pre-intro. Parking the conservation merits for a moment, what do you do now with a Corncrake say in Lincolnshire - wild bird or Cambridgeshire overshoot, or a Cirl Bunting somewhere between Plymouth and the Cornish re-introduction area?

It does taint the record for me because you want to know it's a wild bird.

 

[david kelly]

there are subfossil remains of Hippos too

Rob

Which one? Icterine, Melodious, Booted..........

Sorry!

 

[Nightranger]

how so? I thought it was an introduction rather than an re-introduction, any evidence that these have occurred here in the (relatively recent) past, if so why did they become extinct?

Rob

I am not sure I really understand the arguments to be honest but as someone else has said, it looks like evidence of little owls being a reintroduction hinges on fossil remains. Your mention of hippo fossils is not without relevance in this case because it is not easy to rate whether a reintroduction after natural extinction is a valid concept. Everything seems OK with little owls but my worry with reintroductions generally is that we do not always know if the cause for extinction has been removed.

 

[Aracari]

Another point of view... what is an "introduced" species? One that was introduced by man? Ok, that is a valid point and I agree that we, as birders, should tick just the stablished populations of exotic species. But have you thought that we, as a species, are constantly modifying nature in a natural way too? We are part of nature too, we are just another species out there interacting with others.

"Natural" things can be held responsible for the introduction of several species in areas they didn't previously existed, a rather "recent" example is the connection of North to South America through Panama. Under that thought, is the mountain lion an introduced species in South America? The Brazil Nut tree, which can be found through most of Amazonia (and for many years thought to be a natural distribution), was actually introduced by early indians. The tree is native to the lower Amazon River only. I'm sure there are several bird examples too. My point is, think again what you consider to be natural, after all, we are natural too!

 

[ausmar]

Did not notice the mention of reintroduced when i wrote my original post. If there existed reintroduced sp. in malta i would take them into account. But i for example do not count the chukar which was released by a farmer and now are "wild". The "rock dove" in malta has interbred a lot with feral pigeons so it is rather dubious if to count or not. Martin

 

[Nightranger]

Did not notice the mention of reintroduced when i wrote my original post. If there existed reintroduced sp. in malta i would take them into account. But i for example do not count the chukar which was released by a farmer and now are "wild". The "rock dove" in malta has interbred a lot with feral pigeons so it is rather dubious if to count or not. Martin

I suspect there are few people in the UK that do not count red-legged partridge but it goes to show the complexity of this question when it is examined in further detail. Goshawk is a reintroduced species in the UK but it turns out the birds became established as a result of releases by falconers and they are not the same race that was once present here. I must say that I find myself with a slight bit of unease about this although I have everything listed at the moment, including Canada geese.

 

[ColinD]

I suspect there are few people in the UK that do not count red-legged partridge but it goes to show the complexity of this question when it is examined in further detail......

Red-legged Partridge is actually a very good example which I had forgotten about. In my area, very very few Red-legged Partridge breed, and the population is almost certainly not self sustaining. Yet gamekeepers release hundreds every year, and you would have to walk around with your eyes closed not to see one, at least in the north of the borough.

I tick them like everybody else does, yet almost certainly the birds I am ticking have been captively bred and have been recently released. By no stretch of the imagination are they tickable.

So where in the UK can you tick genuine, self sustaining RLPs and be sure that it has not just been released?

 

[Xenospiza]

I don't count any introduced bird, and I tend to treat reintroductions separately (but will give the benefit of the doubt if I can't tell...)

 

[Barred Wobbler]

Does all this mean that the peacock at the house next to the Newton Links car-park on my way to the Lesser Grey Shrike last week has to come off my list?

 

[Farnboro John]

I seem to recall that the underlying reason White Stork came off the rarities list was that BBRC couldn't tell which were wild and which were escapees. For that matter we have all known for years that the majority of Red-crested Pochards are feral rather than winter visitors, but I bet most people stick any one they see in January on the year-list.

Frankly, folks, you can look too deeply into some of these matters. Go and do some birding and get over it.

John