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Two people break 10,000 species, and on the same day? Can it be? (1 Viewer)

pbjosh

missing the neotropics
Switzerland
For those that don't know, Peter Kaestner and Jason Mann have both self-reported their 10,000th bird species in the last day or so. Many people know or know of Peter and his quest to reach 10k. Jason Mann seems to be relatively unknown, and as far as I can tell basically only published his list on iGoTerra recently when he was approaching 10k.

I've already been party to some interesting discussions but don't use iGT so I cannot personally see his list. Friends tell me Jason has purportedly quietly rediscovered several presumed extinct species and been the first person in decades to log a good handful of the hardest / least accessible species in the world.

Perhaps this thread will help break the stranglehold that the eponyms debate has on the site?
 
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Apologies for the confusing thread title. I’ve edited it. I don’t have details about how many heard only species either has included in their total. I suspect that Peter is saying he has 10k seen birds but don’t know that as a fact. With regard to Jason, I have no clue.
 
Two remarkable species from Jason Manns list on iGoTerra:
Manipur Bush Quail (no sightings since 1932, then a sighting by an Indian ornithologist in 2006, but not seen by any birders in the area, no records on Ebird (only historical ones).
New Caledonian Nightjar: collected in New Caledonia in 1939. No sightings since then. By no one. But him, obviously.

There are certainly more dodgy species. So either this guy is the luckiest birder alive, having rediscovered several lost species. Or his list is not to be trusted.
 
Purple-winged Ground-Dove raises eyebrows as well. The last undeniable records I know of are from 20-25+ years ago. Two plausibly valid records from 15-ish years back from very reputable biologists / birders.
 
Kaestner has 7. I use igoterra and have enjoyed reading his observation diary over the last few months. He does list most of his bird sightings as well as the lifers and it’s been good to follow.

I know nothing about the other guy
Just had a look at Igoterra but it doesn't let you do anything except view the 'league table' if you're not a member. I did notice one birder I met, the late Derrick Wilby is at no. 34 with 7,694.

There is this feature on the Manakin Tours website about Jason Mann:


Surely the extremely rare species he'd rediscovered would need to pass some sort of verification process?
 
He's not on eBird either - just checked New Caledonian Nightjar, while he doesn't appear on the recent lists for Colibri del Sol ProAves reserve, where he reportedly broke the 10,000 barrier.
I think birders can sometimes be a little too quick to judge those who aren't 'known', but would agree some of these records do seem extraordinary, and would've expected to have been reported and examined.
 
If Mann does not have photo/audio proof of these extraordinarily rare species he has claimed to see, could the list and records ever be accepted?
There's no adjudicating body for world listing so claims are based largely on trust. Clearly birders like Pete Kaestner who have a long track record of serious world listing, and no reputation for outlandish claims, are likely to be given greater credibility. Ultimately you are only cheating yourself by inflating your list with dubious records.
 
Just had a look at Igoterra but it doesn't let you do anything except view the 'league table' if you're not a member. I did notice one birder I met, the late Derrick Wilby is at no. 34 with 7,694.

There is this feature on the Manakin Tours website about Jason Mann:


Surely the extremely rare species he'd rediscovered would need to pass some sort of verification process?
That's a good article. Good for the reputation of the hobby, conservation etc.
 
I assume both are using IOC lists, certainly Peter's list is 9854 against Clements if you look at his eBird account.

It is interesting with the WGAC attempt for convergence. How long will it last with the next review?
 
Kaestner has 7. I use igoterra and have enjoyed reading his observation diary over the last few months. He does list most of his bird sightings as well as the lifers and it’s been good to follow.

I know nothing about the other guy

3 or 4 of kaestners 7 heard only are this year so it could be that he’s only just started marking whether something is heard only
 
The lists can be found here:
Jason Mann
Peter Kaestner

I believe everyone who's interested in world birding knows about Peter Kaestner. He posts regularly on Facebook and is present on eBird, IGoTerra, iNaturalist and surfbirds. I think everybody, including himself, was expecting for him to become the first birder to break 10.000 species. This prompted him to write this piece a few months ago (June 2023), where he details his plans to reach 9.999 species and to get Tufted Puffin in Oregon as number 10.000, together "with [his] loved ones and others who helped [him] over the years.", "sometime in the second half of 2024" as he writes.
Apparently, these plans must have changed drastically, as he has now reached that milestone about half a year earlier than planned and not in Oregon with loved ones, but in the Philippines, where he's supposed to lead a tour in March. It seems that something prompted him to reconsider his lovely idea of sharing his 10.000th bird with family and friends. Although this is purely speculation, perhaps it was the surprising event of a guy called Jason Mann joining iGoTerra in January with a list very close to 10.000 species. It was apparent Jason Mann could edge him out of the record, when he was so incredibly close to it. And as it so happens, both birders claim their 10.000th bird species within a few hours of each other. For Peter Kaestner it was Orange-tufted Spiderhunter on February 9th in Mindanao/Philippines, for Jason it was either Chestnut-bellied Flowerpiercer or Dusky Starfrontlet on February 8th (?) in Colombia (depending on source).
Now here's the problem: Nobody seems to know who Jason Mann is. Everyone knows who Peter Kaestner is. Peter's credibility is as good as it gets, everyone likes him and everything he reports seems plausible. Jason Mann however reports several dozen extremely fishy species, that besides him, no-one has claimed to have seen for decades.
These include the following near-mythical species: Bornean Crestless Fireback, Malayan Crested Argus, Manipur Bush Quail, New Caledonian Nightjar, Bare-legged Swiftlet, Buff-breasted Sabrewing, Nubian Bustard, Purple-winged Ground-dove, Colombian Crake, Zapata Rail, Auckland Rail, Talaud Rail, Buff-breasted Buttonquail, Sulawesi Woodcock, Jerdon's Courser, Chestnut-shouldered Goshawk, Albertine Owlet, Shelley's Eagle-Owl, Manus Dwarf Kingfisher, New Ireland Dwarf Kingfisher, Niam-niam Parrot, Blue-fronted Lorikeet, Red-throated Lorikeet, White-naped Lory, Tachira Antpitta, Stresemann's Bristlefront, Taliabu Myzomela, Rotuma Myzomela, Papuan Whipbird, Western Wattled Cuckooshrike, Eastern Wattled Cuckooshrike, Sooty Shrikethrush, Taliabu Fantail, Vanikoro Monarch, Ogea Monarch, (Iranian Ground Jay), Kordofan Lark, Sassi's Olive Greenbul, (Nauru Reed Warbler), Taliabu Bush Warbler, Dusky Tetraka, Namuli Apalis, Kangean Tit-babbler, Naung Mung Scimitar Babbler, (Bahama Nuthatch), (White-browed Nuthatch), Cozumel Thrasher, Pohnpei Starling, (Javan Pied Myna), Rufous-breasted Blue Flycatcher, Spectacled Flowerpecker, Afghan Snowfinch, Zarudny's Sparrow, Bates's Weaver, Cinnamon Weaver, Yellow-capped Weaver, Ibadan Malimbe, Red Weaver, Shelley's Crimsonwing, Anambra Waxbill, Jambandu Indigobird, Guadalupe Junco, Grey-crowned Palm-Tanager, Selva Cacique, White-faced Whitestart, Guaiquinima Whitestart, Carrizal Seedeater, Duida Grass Finch, Scaled Flowerpiercer, Black Robin, Blackthroat.

All the above mentioned species are extremely rare, virtually no one in the world has seen them. Some haven't been recorded in decades or even centuries. Some occur only in war regions, on islands that can only be visited by scientist, on remote mountains that can only be accessed via helicopter.
Frankly, I don't believe a single one of these species was ever seen by Mr Mann.
 

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