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Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Debunking the Critics (1 Viewer)

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cajanuma

Well-known member
SI never declared the species extinct.
Why in the world would the Smithsonian Institution "declare" the Ivory-billed Woodpecker, or any other species for that matter, extinct?

BTW Gary Graves was the Curator of Birds at SI's US Museum of Natural History even back in 2006, he was not "struggling in little Brinkley on 5K a year"

As someone else said, this is getting tiresome
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
Why in the world would the Smithsonian Institution "declare" the Ivory-billed Woodpecker, or any other species for that matter, extinct?

BTW Gary Graves was the Curator of Birds at SI's US Museum of Natural History even back in 2006, he was not "struggling in little Brinkley on 5K a year"

As someone else said, this is getting tiresome
Bacause there are none left....................!!!!!

Where do you stand on Passenger Pigeon and Dodo?
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
I think you misunderstood me completely. The Smithsonian Institution is not in the business of "declaring" species extinct, I was just pointing out the idiocy of UOM's statement
Out of interest, who does do such a declaration, are there fixed criteria?
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
I don't know, but I do know this: There are several species that haven't been reliably recorded for many years that I can believe may not be extinct. Ivory-billed Woodpecker isn't one of them.
What do you think may still be extant?

I'd think Pink-headed Duck, White-eyed River Martin and Javan Lapwing are unlikely, it would be a forest species if there were such a survivor? I don't think Jerdon's Courser has gone yet, you just can't get a permit to look for it.
 

Larry Sweetland

Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
What do you think may still be extant?

I'd think Pink-headed Duck, White-eyed River Martin and Javan Lapwing are unlikely, it would be a forest species if there were such a survivor? I don't think Jerdon's Courser has gone yet, you just can't get a permit to look for it.
I think eg Red-throated Lorikeet and Samoan Moorhen stand more chance of existing than IBW, and doubtless s few other less looked for Indonesian and south American species. I'd have said the same about Night Parrot, but that has been refound anyway.
 

ZanderII

Well-known member
You are on kilter and purposely trying to mislead others. Often declining species are in pockets or in disjunct populations. Sometimes there are even single birds of a species here and there, over wide areas.
Absolutely true, but there is no precedent for a temperature zone species with a wide historical geographic distribution to persist at low densities and evade detection. None. Species rediscoveries invariably involve taxa which were historically poorly known in badly-inventoried areas - basically always in the tropics.

If you want to rediscover a species then pick one known from the type, type series or a handful of old specimens in a remote region.

IBWO is not a candidate for rediscovery any more than Carolina Parakeet or Eskimo Curlew is. However, I bet you can get some candidate videograbs if you canoe around urban Miami and adjacent estuaries.
 

Hauksen

Forum member
What makes you think there is so much variably in range of wing cycles when its not reflected in the equations/ formulas and field flight data for many species?

Hi Mike,

It's in Tobalske's article I pointed out to you back in 2019:


"It was formerly hypothesized that small birds were constrained by their muscle physiology to use a narrow range of contractile velocity in their pectoralis (Rayner, 1985), but sonomicrometry and electromyography reveal that they use the same mechanisms as larger birds, the timing and magnitude of neuromuscular activation as well as the contractile velocity of the muscle, for modulating Pmus (Tobalske et al., 2005; Tobalske and Biewener, in press; Askew and Ellerby, 2007)."

Regards,

Henning
 

ZanderII

Well-known member
But there was and is many unknowns with this tenacious and These types always seem to isolate one data point; an RBC must look at all the evidence, not just a bit small amount or what they see as weak. Zander bad work.
My argument is that the whole body of evidence is weak. We have hundreds of 'possible' detections from across multiple states and yet no confirmed sightings. I can't think of a parallel with any vertebrate. However the jaded cult-like following, berating of experts, cultivating conspiracy of theories, refusal to critically appraise information and faith in blurry photos is common to many believers in cryptids.
 

ZanderII

Well-known member
However the jaded cult-like following, berating of experts, cultivating conspiracy of theories, refusal to critically appraise information and faith in blurry photos is common to many believers in cryptids.
A parallel example might be the Thylacine, lots of fringe groups claiming it is extant. I suggest that Mike and the puppet army has a look in the mirror.

 

raymie

Well-known member
United States
What do you think may still be extant?

I'd think Pink-headed Duck, White-eyed River Martin and Javan Lapwing are unlikely, it would be a forest species if there were such a survivor? I don't think Jerdon's Courser has gone yet, you just can't get a permit to look for it.
I think Himalayan Quail, Sinu Parakeet, Makira Moorhen, New Caledonian Owlet-Nightjar, Guanacaste Hummingbird, Kinglet Calyptura, and Cayenne Nightjar are likely to still be out there. Most of these are known from only a few specimens in areas with few to no bird surveys.
 

ZanderII

Well-known member
I think Himalayan Quail, Sinu Parakeet, Makira Moorhen, New Caledonian Owlet-Nightjar, Guanacaste Hummingbird, Kinglet Calyptura, and Cayenne Nightjar are likely to still be out there. Most of these are known from only a few specimens in areas with few to no bird surveys.
Calyptura unlikely, follows same rule, historically well known and occurring in a well inventoried area. People routinely find vagrant Nearctic warblers there. Cayenne Nightjar may not be a valid taxon, but if it is, it is highly likely to be extant.
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
Calyptura unlikely, follows same rule, historically well known and occurring in a well inventoried area. People routinely find vagrant Nearctic warblers there. Cayenne Nightjar may not be a valid taxon, but if it is, it is highly likely to be extant.
Coulld be a dysjunct population, take Gurney's Pitta as an example?
 

ZanderII

Well-known member
Coulld be a dysjunct population, take Gurney's Pitta as an example?
Possible, but you could apply the same rule to lots of lost species. Calyptura was historically common and easy to collect; something catastrophic happened, which seems likely to be loss of lowland forest around RJ. Perhaps the species was an altitudinal migrant and this forest loss was fatal for the species. Undocumented for over a century isn't a good look for the species.
 

Diane D

Well-known member
United States
Over the years, there have been many posts on birdforum about the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Despite a lack of quality in these discussions, I have posted occasional updates about my work on this topic for any bird watchers who might be interested in this magnificent bird and its conservation. I recently posted a lecture on debunking the critics and published this article. All of my articles and lectures on the Ivory-billed Woodpecker may be accessed at my website.

As discussed in the lecture on debunking the critics, the ‘big name’ bird watchers in the U.S. have been exposed (to anyone who carefully reviews the facts) as phonies. After failing for decades to document one of the most amazing birds in the world, which was present right under their noses, none of them met the challenge of the Mt. Everest of birds after others published reports of sightings in Arkansas, Florida, and Louisiana. They simply did what birders seem to do best -- sit around and try to discredit others.

Mike Collins
Alexandria, Virginia
 

Diane D

Well-known member
United States
Had a potential Brazilian guide that was pretty darn sure he had seen the Kinglet Calyt.. several years ago. If might look for name and pass it on.



Am disappointed that even in the short thread here you see so many inconstancies amongst posters and bizarrely even within the same individual on what indicates a species is obviously extinct and what indicates it is not.



For conservation’s sake an extinction determination should have standard prerequisites but buffered to avoid any premature declarations which of course could be an eternal mistake. Whether the buffering is a grace period of decades, surveys or some combination of these could be worked out.
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
Had a potential Brazilian guide that was pretty darn sure he had seen the Kinglet Calyt.. several years ago. If might look for name and pass it on.



Am disappointed that even in the short thread here you see so many inconstancies amongst posters and bizarrely even within the same individual on what indicates a species is obviously extinct and what indicates it is not.



For conservation’s sake an extinction determination should have standard prerequisites but buffered to avoid any premature declarations
which of course could be an eternal mistake. Whether the buffering is a grace period of decades, surveys or some combination of these could be worked out.
I posed the question in post 164 as to what the criteria are. I haven't seen any suggested either prior to my post or since so where are the inconsitencies you speak of?

I'd suggest that the most reliable starting point in suggesting a species may be extinct, would be the total loss of breeding habitat?

Another factor which is relatively easily studied, is the effect of hunting on certain species and the absence of observations over a period of time, a la Passenger Pigeon.

Far more difficult to attach any such criteria to species which live in remote, difficult to study areas. What criteria do you suggest and what 'buffers' would you put in place?

You're starting to sound like one of those opposition, politicians with an abundance of criticism for government policy but when it comes to the crunch, no actual answers to any of the problems.
 
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ZanderII

Well-known member
Had a potential Brazilian guide that was pretty darn sure he had seen the Kinglet Calyt.. several years ago. If might look for name and pass it on.
There have been several possibles and indeed a widely believed rediscovery by some very competent ornithologists but again no proof and no reason to believe that the species is somehow difficult to find. The species was easily collected in the 1800s; there are boxes full of them in museums.

On declaring extinction, there are quantitative criteria https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...vMtmtWlc5REF64qe3wxJPrtvVtAUck1aOnFCma9Q9lghQ
 

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Diane D

Well-known member
United States
I posed the question in post 164 as to what the criteria are. I haven't seen any suggested either prior to my post or since so where are the inconsitencies you speak of?
Yes AA your post and others made me think about standards more from a global aspect. But then your last question in your post 164 started going into opposition party questions and my affiliation mixed with an insult so I'm not sure where you're coming from. In other words your post hybrididized global questions on species status with local opposition and politics.

Ignoring the insult I think it's correct like you may have unknowingly done to consider scope, politics and opposition.

Since any criteria and adherence to it on the international scale would almost surely be voluntary at first from a legal enforcement status it's probably best to just start with proposed standards that all the ngos, conservation groups, birders, other stakeholders, agree to.

After it's all agreed upon then obviously there would be battles within each country to somehow mesh this new international Extinction standard into local laws.

Another alternative to these expensive and time-consuming battles is to have countries formerly sign a treaty, similar to the climate change structure.
 
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