Lee Evans interviewed by David Lindo (1 Viewer)

[Lee Evans]

Since my reference to George Michael recently, I have never been as popular amongst the swinging public on facebook let alone those with swinging binoculars !

 

[Dean Eades]

Very interesting read but all twitchers are the same, as are Photographers all have there opinion and at the end of the day that's all that matters, it is a great hobby ... going back to policing a twitch etc, someone getting in a hide first thing in the morning waiting for views/photos should he/she leave the hide to make room for others ?

 

[Alan Tilmouth]

Lee, every cloud has a silver lining. Despite how you feel at the moment, if there was ever a time to write and publish your autobiography it's now!

 

[VillagerFred]

At least Mr Evans hasn't been subjected to that many jokes about Mr Michael. In my experience, 87% of them involve the phrase 'careless wispa', and have something to do with a misplaced confectionary product....

 

[Gomphus]

Lee. I think you have to accept (albeit with reservations), that digital photography has significantly enhanced both birdwatching and the indentification of rare birds.

The Sussex Lesser Sand Plover would not have been indentified without photos. Two recent firsts for Britain would have been overlooked if it had not been for photos being posted on the net.

As for rare seabirds, I do take your point. Having said if your Little Shearwater was multi observed, then it is down to individuals to submit there notes.

Choosing not to submit records is individuals making choices.

I'd disagree slightly over some points there Mark! I and about 30 others on the day my party went for the Sussex LSPlover all thought it was Lesser and got enough on it to prove it.... although I feel we may have been banging our heads against the "names" who had I'd'd it previously perhaps?

Yes digital photo's have been useful but I still feel that it should not devalue a good set of field notes as evidence.... seabirds are rarely going to be photographed and just how do you get across the nuances of a birds flight and behaviour etc (well lets face it the "jizz") on a photo? Photo's and yes even videos at times can be misleading as to what they portray. I have been spending time with gulls as usual this autumn and find that judging tones and shades etc from photo's and videos is hard and at times differs greatly from those seen by the human eye, depending on the settings etc on the camera. I find my eyes are much more reliable at subtle tones, washes, shades etc.

Unfortunately as Lee has rightly pointed out many birders now feel if they haven't got a set of digi images its pointless submitting and that's a real shame as records will be lost. Out of the birders I see regularly on my local patch I can think of perhaps 2 or 3 who carry cameras and use them......

Can I use this opportunity to thank Lee for his organizational skills etc at twitches over the years, I've certainly had good views of birds I wouldn't have had had he not sorted queue's etc. Now I don't "list" in any meaningful way so most of this passes me by but I find myself agreeing more with Lee on his views of the birding scene if not all of his listing decisions etc.... But as he says we should all be able to disagree and still be friendly and civil, no-one can agree all the time with everyone else! All this is after all a hobby for most of us however important it is in our lives:t:

ATB

Steph'

 

[Gomphus]

Very interesting read but all twitchers are the same, as are Photographers all have there opinion and at the end of the day that's all that matters, it is a great hobby ... going back to policing a twitch etc, someone getting in a hide first thing in the morning waiting for views/photos should he/she leave the hide to make room for others ?

Just common, decent courtesy isn't it to let others in to see the bird if there are people waiting and you have seen it????

ATB

Steph'

 

[black kite 1964]

I'd disagree slightly over some points there Mark! I and about 30 others on the day my party went for the Sussex LSPlover all thought it was Lesser and got enough on it to prove it.... although I feel we may have been banging our heads against the "names" who had I'd'd it previously perhaps?

Steph. In a way you prove my point here. I understand that the "great and the good" had decided it was a greater! On this occaison they were later proved to be wrong!!

 

[Gomphus]

I'd disagree slightly over some points there Mark! I and about 30 others on the day my party went for the Sussex LSPlover all thought it was Lesser and got enough on it to prove it.... although I feel we may have been banging our heads against the "names" who had I'd'd it previously perhaps?

Steph. In a way you prove my point here. I understand that the "great and the good" had decided it was a greater! On this occaison they were later proved to be wrong!!

Humm, but it depended on whether those who thought it was Lesser or a Greater sent in their observations as field notes etc.... we will never know actually how it would have turned out because, I admit the photo's were there, but if they hadn't been it would have been interesting to see what happened. I really think that good notes etc would have swayed the case!

I still think that Lee is right about far too much emphasis being on photo's.
The perceived need for images, IMO makes those who don't get photo's reluctant or even scared to submit records.

ATB

Steph'

 

[wolfbirder]

I think its a valid point, i amongst many others do not have camera equipment, so in the unlikely event that i found a Siberian Rubythroat strutting a Wolverhampton council estate garden it would never get accepted. Of course this is as unlikely anyway, but the fundamental fact remains that if i ever do find something good, even with submitted records BBRC would not accept it without good photos. In conclusion,I think there is an over reliance, and whilst photos are a relatively recent positive tool in bird identification, they should not replace or demean good submitted records in any way.

 

[Idle Valley Birder]

Judge and Jury

Steve
I still do not understand your point. The decisions made by the Club are not my own but that of a culmination of 30 or more of those I have chosen or have been nominated as my Advisors -
<Snip>.
Likewise, if it is individual birders that we are talking rather than bird records, I solicit help from recorders or pertinent members of a county if I have doubt over the credibility of an observer.

Lee.
I noted from your comments elsewhere, that you have decided to leave the twitching and I presume the 'List Policing Scene' also. B :
So before you go may i respectfully make a few comments and also ask 2 questions please.

First of all Lee. You do understand exactly Steve's points, you as always just choose not to address the issues.

You also freely admit on every available occasion, including the BBC4 and
Birdguides interviews, which i watched.
That "You alone are the sole arbitor of birders lists".
Yet you now say that you solicit help. What exactly does that mean please?

What both i any many others cant understand is that you believe that you had the right to stand as judge and jury regarding the 'Credibility' of birders? Then fabricate birders sightings and personal lists without at times having any personal knowledge, as to whether a birder did or did not see any particular bird.

Just what kind of sad and perverse pleasure does one get, from a lifetime of doubting the 'credibility' of fellow birders?

Sorry but i am away for the next 4 days Lee.
So please give it some thought before you give us all an honest answer.

Good Luck in the future.
Del.

 

[Lee Evans]

Del Boy (aka Derick Evans)

This is getting very much a boring topic and with such polarised views, pretty pointless argument. I will just redress a few pointers -

A) Along with RBA, Birdnet, National Birdline and the Regional Birdlines, all of us carefully monitor information kindly provided by regular contributors. I converse with many of the operatives on an ongoing basis and we work through information and it is broadcast daily, from 0730 hours through 2300 hours. Whether it be a mental note or actual logging of observations, we all have a very good idea of who is reliable and who is not. As I am in the business of actually actively twitching or seeking to see many of these birds (other than just write or hear about them), I go that one bit further and investigate fully any report, as I do not see that anyone gains by having ''duff gen'' in the public domain and I do not want to drive many hundreds of miles for a bird that either does not exist or has been mistakenly identified. This is the main reason for keeping tabs on what observers are reporting and their reliability status.

B) Clearly, I have no hope of knowing everybody on the birding scene, and hence why I solicit help when trying to establish the reliability of a sighting and chase a record up, either with the finder (as in the case of the Exminster American Robin recently) or with the Regional Representatives I fall back on (and having been active in Rare Bird Dissemination since 1978 have an excellent chain of communication up and down the country)

In your case Derek, I recently chased up a record of yours (a claim of a Black-eared Wheatear in a tilled field in North Lincolnshire). This sighting was apparently mega-alerted but as far as I know you were the sole observer and local birders had checked the field where you had seen the bird before and immediately after you phoned it in. I instantly checked the record out with locals as I knew that there would be quite a bit of interest in such a claim (and as it was, 12 people contacted me during the evening wanting to know about it, mainly because it would have been a UK lifer for them). Do you know how many people checked it out next morning? A record like this will have to be judged on probability of occurrence and on the field description provided but the same mindset I use will be applied to this sighting utilising the knowledge that has been gleaned over a very long period of time.

 

[Steve Babbs]

It is the job of the BBRC to judge rarity records. They are not perfect, but at least they are appointed by a vote. They are not self-appointed.

 

[Lee Evans]

BBRC adjudicate only those bird records submitted to them whereas I actively pursue all claimed bird records, many of which are never submitted to British Birds but are seen by extremely competent and reliable observers (eg, two recent records - a Killdeer and Common Yellowthroat that I was notified of - both photographed).

In terms of voting for members of said Committee, it is a closed shop - voting by county recorders only and not the general birding public. It is a Records Committee affiliated to a magazine and as many of us know, a magazine that was bled to death with up to £47,000 per annum drained out of its funds for a very long period of time. Prior to that, it had been purchased for literally pence.

On a few occasions I have been nominated by associates and my name has been put forward to serve but I have always fallen foul of the Official Secrets Act in the weighing up stages - I could never sign up to the treaty to keep stum on records, particularly those not in the public domain at that time, and as has rightly been presented - a conflict of interest. However, from what I can effectively see now on the internet, these rules must have been relaxed somewhat as Martin Garner's Birding Frontier's website often pre-empts decisions (and certainly must have a bearing on other serving members in what decisions they finally make)

 

[black kite 1964]

Lee. British Birds Magazine may have gone via a difficult period under previous ownership. I would suggest it is safe hands now!

Individuals choose to submit records to the BBRC. Would suggest that if they are unsure (or can not be bothered) they do not submit records.

The standards that the BBRC adopt are very high. They are set that way for a reason!

As far as membership of the BBRC is concerned, I would suggest that being nominated is no longer having attended the right school/having the right mates etc. Again, would suggest that all current members (or at least the ones I know) are all quality observers, with proven track records of finding and indentifying rare birds!

Unless of course you know different?

 

[Idle Valley Birder]

Your right Lee. If you will not address the listing police issue then there is no point bin asking you the questions.
Shame you have to resort to infering my recent find in Linc's may be in doubt.
Just to put 'YOUR RECORDS' straight Lee.
1) The Blk-eared wheatear was not found in a tilled field at all.

2) NO! birders were anywhere near the tilled field, never mind checking it prior to me finding the bird.

3) As I regularly bird the Linc's coast and have done for years. I did realize how important it may be to local birders.

4) That's why I called a very reputable local birder, only seconds after putting the news out on Birdnet.

I also waited till dark to speak to any birders that turned up. Unfortunately no one did.
Your grapevine would appear to need tending a little Lee.

Kind regards.
Derick Evans - AKA DEL.

 

[Idle Valley Birder]

Del Boy (aka Derick Evans)

This is getting very much a boring topic and with such polarised views, pretty pointless argument. I will just redress a few pointers -

A) Along with RBA, Birdnet, National Birdline and the Regional Birdlines, all of us carefully monitor information kindly provided by regular contributors. I converse with many of the operatives on an ongoing basis and we work through information and it is broadcast daily, from 0730 hours through 2300 hours. Whether it be a mental note or actual logging of observations, we all have a very good idea of who is reliable and who is not. As I am in the business of actually actively twitching or seeking to see many of these birds (other than just write or hear about them), I go that one bit further and investigate fully any report, as I do not see that anyone gains by having ''duff gen'' in the public domain and I do not want to drive many hundreds of miles for a bird that either does not exist or has been mistakenly identified. This is the main reason for keeping tabs on what observers are reporting and their reliability status.

B) Clearly, I have no hope of knowing everybody on the birding scene, and hence why I solicit help when trying to establish the reliability of a sighting and chase a record up, either with the finder (as in the case of the Exminster American Robin recently) or with the Regional Representatives I fall back on (and having been active in Rare Bird Dissemination since 1978 have an excellent chain of communication up and down the country)

In your case Derek, I recently chased up a record of yours (a claim of a Black-eared Wheatear in a tilled field in North Lincolnshire). This sighting was apparently mega-alerted but as far as I know you were the sole observer and local birders had checked the field where you had seen the bird before and immediately after you phoned it in. I instantly checked the record out with locals as I knew that there would be quite a bit of interest in such a claim (and as it was, 12 people contacted me during the evening wanting to know about it, mainly because it would have been a UK lifer for them). Do you know how many people checked it out next morning? A record like this will have to be judged on probability of occurrence and on the field description provided but the same mindset I use will be applied to this sighting utilising the knowledge that has been gleaned over a very long period of time.

Shame you have to resort to inuendo regrding my find on the Linc's coast.
For your records. The bird was not found in tilled field at all. There were no birders present either prior to finding the bird.
I know this Lee because unlike youself. I WAS THEIR AT THE TIME.
Regards.
Derick Evans - AKA Del.

 

[Idle Valley Birder]

Apologies for replying twice.

Sorry for the almost double take in replying to LGRE.
I am on the Linc's coast birding this week, With no broadband and issues with I thought, sending messages. Obviously not.
My apologies again, seems me and technology just don't seem to get on.

Regards.
Del.

 

[Big Jim]

Hi Lee,

I have been following the way forward thread and the point I was interested in was your Southern Pochard record. Please could you tell me the date of your sighting? Kind Regards.

 

[Hooded Crow]

I am a fairly new and inexperienced birder - so perhaps I have no right to comment. This seems to be a clash between different expectations / styles of birding; with a heavy dose of personality seasoning the mix.

There are several types of competitive birders for whom lists are important and so those who adjudicate those lists whether elected, self appointed or there by any other method are in the firing line. Equally those "competing" will want their sightings believed - and take it personally if they are not.

Lee seems to take a traditionalist approach, notebooks and seeing the bird himself, or getting a trusted associate to see the bird. If people want to belong to Lee's club (and there are plenty who do), they just have to accept those as the rules!

The BBRC seem to take a different approach, with photographic evidence being important (I don't know that personally, I've just gleaned it from this thread). This approach seems to cause just as many disputes, but the BBRC being slightly more anonymous, the interactions seem a bit less personal.

Me, I like going to the local reserves and showing the birds to my children. You won't find me at any twitch because the children wouldn't like it ("are we there yet dad?") and I am not on any listing site. Folk who enjoy twitching will find that difficult to understand - but I'm sure that they are happy for me to do birding in my way, and I'm happy for them to do birding in theirs.

This, for most of us, is a hobby that can (hopefully) also do some good for the birds we watch and the natural world. If we come to blows, our main joint message (that birds are important) will be lost.

 

[SaxonBirder]

Back to the Lindo interview. I noticed a posting on Birdguides that was quickly removed for some reason. It asked the question at about 7:14 I think in the first video a picture of a notebook was seen which shows up again on Lindo's urban birder website on the diary page. It is of the Cliffe Pools Stilt Sand which turned up - was it 11th and was sketched by the notebook holder on the 20th.

I have a strong feeling that it was a strong case of 'product placement'. I can't see anyone who likes listing wait a week to see a Stilt Sand. The real reason I think the post was removed is there was a question put by the poster if it was Lee's diary.

Lee - are you able to scan in your notebooks to show those real rare events you've seen across the WP over the years. Would be great to see what your expectations are.