Let's talk PORROS! (1 Viewer)

[Charnwood]

Opticron used to market a range of porros - the SR GA which included a 12.5 x 50 and a 9-22 × 50. The last survivor is a cute little 8 x 32. I think also a 7 x 50 was around for a while. They developed from the HR WP range. I can't find an old brochure page at the moment.

Nikon 7 x 35 Action EX is described as waterproof..... a lovely affordable porro unit.

I own an HRWP and the 8x32 SRGA.
The HR WP is unusual in being an internal focus Porro - so has the same advantage that roof prisms have as regards waterproofing. It also has good eye relief so is perhaps the sort of modernised Porro being suggested (and I think was suggested) earlier in this thread. The SRGA is a high quality but non-waterproof conventional Porro and as far as I know an unrelated design.
I think both are very good and there are lots of positive comments in older threads.

 

[Patudo]

If only there was a hybrid that combined the best features of both - the HR WP's image quality and mod cons (waterproofing, twist eyecups, long eye relief) with the SR.GA's wide field or something close to it. The SR.GA 8x32 I tried at Birdfair, I have to say did not really impress me - admittedly this was after a long day looking at alphas - but the binoscopes in this recent thread look really good. The HR WP 8x42 I felt were definitely better image-wise and had the design features birders expect today, but the tight field of view (112m) was too confining for me. It was small, light and handled well (almost more like a x35 or smallish x40 than a x42) but I would have rather it been a little larger/bulkier to accommodate larger prisms for a wider FOV.

The problem is that Opticron already have a line of roofs, and it doesn't really make sense to have too many offerings in your product line. An outfit like APM may perhaps be in a better position to offer birding optimized porros - already quite well respected in astro circles and would not compete against anything in their existing product line (that I'm aware of anyway - someone correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[etudiant]

The Nikon 7x35 Action EX is a good little Porro binocular, but the edges are too soft and it just not at the level of the alpha roofs. We need some alpha porros. An alpha Porro will beat an alpha roof for 1/3 the cost.

Dennis, these are binocs that sell for $125 on Amazon. That is less than 5% of the price of snazzy Swaros. or the like.
On a price/performance basis, they top the chart.

 

[Dennis Mau]

Dennis, these are binocs that sell for $125 on Amazon. That is less than 5% of the price of snazzy Swaros. or the like.
On a price/performance basis, they top the chart.

I agree. They were one of my first binoculars and I have fond memories of them. Your right about Porros topping the chart on a price/performance basis. The Nikon 7x35 Action EX are probably as good as most $500 roofs.

 

[pbjosh]

Have you ever looked through a big Porro? They will blow you away if you are used to those little roof prism 8x32 birding binoculars. They did me. Don't you notice the 3D view when you look through a Porro or the lack of aberrations or the brightness? It amazes me that people don't notice the difference in the view between a porro and a roof. I guess the marketing companies have done their jobs well and convinced people to buy roofs with an inferior view at 3 times the cost. If APM made a good quality APO Porro in a 8x42 it would be at the top of the list on Allbinos under the 8x42 category just like Porros top the lists of the 7x50, 10x50 and 8x56 categories at 1/3 the cost. A Porro is a superior design and has just lost sales because people like the looks and size of the roofs and the manufacturers make more profit on them.

I've had cursory looks at some larger porros and the views are nice, yes. The views through 50-56mm roofs are generally nice as well, but I have no interest in binoculars that large. I also don't know of any porros that blow away any alpha roof prism binoculars for 1/3 of the price for general purpose birding. For astro use, perhaps. There are good porros at good prices, yes. Optically, porros are frequently optically superior in many ways to roof competitors at the same price point, yes. I fully understand why astronomy aficionados use large porros so frequently. I understand why discerning birders on tight budgets frequently opt for porros in the < $200 price range, as the ergonomic limitations of a $100 porro become less worrisome than the optical limitations of a $100 roof prism bin. But I also understand why the majority of birders vastly prefer roof prism binoculars. It's not an inherent preference for one prism type over the other, but it's a preference for what comes in the roof prism "package" - notably good eye relief, waterproofing, modern eye cups, and a reasonably sized focus knob in a reasonably sized package.

 

[sidpost]

New porros have better eye relief. There is no reason the modern advancements in roof bins can't be applied to porros.

For the same money, to a point, porros provide a real cost advantage over similar performance roof bins. What modern technology doesn't solve in the 'form factor' where most people prefer the packaging of roof bins.

 

[pbjosh]

New porros have better eye relief. There is no reason the modern advancements in roof bins can't be applied to porros.

Some have better eye relief, but not all - it appears that many that are still in production rely on older optical designs, most on small focus wheels, and nearly every porro model relies on antiquated eye cups (this last part I really don't understand!). I think porros would be more popular if they came with modern oculars providing better eye relief, somewhat better focus wheels, and modern eye cups.

 

[Dennis Mau]

I've had cursory looks at some larger porros and the views are nice, yes. The views through 50-56mm roofs are generally nice as well, but I have no interest in binoculars that large. I also don't know of any porros that blow away any alpha roof prism binoculars for 1/3 of the price for general purpose birding. For astro use, perhaps. There are good porros at good prices, yes. Optically, porros are frequently optically superior in many ways to roof competitors at the same price point, yes. I fully understand why astronomy aficionados use large porros so frequently. I understand why discerning birders on tight budgets frequently opt for porros in the < $200 price range, as the ergonomic limitations of a $100 porro become less worrisome than the optical limitations of a $100 roof prism bin. But I also understand why the majority of birders vastly prefer roof prism binoculars. It's not an inherent preference for one prism type over the other, but it's a preference for what comes in the roof prism "package" - notably good eye relief, waterproofing, modern eye cups, and a reasonably sized focus knob in a reasonably sized package.

The Habicht 10x40 GA will equal any 10x42 alpha roof optically plus it has higher transmission and the Porro 3D view instead of the "Pie Plate" view of flat field roofs but for a lot of people it is not as user-friendly as a modern roof. If modern eye cups, the size of the focus knob and that kind of stuff are more important to you then a roof prism is the way to go. If the view is more important like it is to me a Porro is the way to go. The Habicht GA eye cups are just as comfortable as most roof prism eye cups, but they are not adjustable which can be an advantage with some poorly made eye cups on the roofs.

 

[sidpost]

Some have better eye relief, but not all - it appears that many that are still in production rely on older optical designs, most on small focus wheels, and nearly every porro model relies on antiquated eye cups (this last part I really don't understand!). I think porros would be more popular if they came with modern oculars providing better eye relief, somewhat better focus wheels, and modern eye cups.

I'm thinking about some APM bins myself. The high magnification models I'm looking at are 20mm with the lower, but still high, magnifications being 23mm.

I seriously thought about some Swarovski Habicht or the old school Zeiss 15x60's but, their short eye relief with my glasses eventually turned me away to other options.

The APM ED's certainly look good for a more modern bin along with their relatively modest prices even with a terrible dollar to Euro conversion rate (1 Euro to $1.20 right now! ) are attractive to me.

I'm thinking about some 11x70 or 16x80 bins right now. 5~6lbs and IF though causes me a little pause.

 

[Dennis Mau]

I'm thinking about some APM bins myself. The high magnification models I'm looking at are 20mm with the lower, but still high, magnifications being 23mm.

I seriously thought about some Swarovski Habicht or the old school Zeiss 15x60's but, their short eye relief with my glasses eventually turned me away to other options.

The APM ED's certainly look good for a more modern bin along with their relatively modest prices even with a terrible dollar to Euro conversion rate (1 Euro to $1.20 right now! ) are attractive to me.

I'm thinking about some 11x70 or 16x80 bins right now. 5~6lbs and IF though causes me a little pause.

The APM APO are really a bargain. The quality is very nice. It is a lot easier and less expensive to build a quality porro than a roof.

 

[dries1]

I wonder what these would be like, performance wise, with the reticle and laser protection removed.

Zeiss Hensoldt 10x50 M Fero D19 binoculars German Army Navy Skipper Marine B | eBay

10x50 M Fero D19 (primary color light green)from the German Army (Bundeswehr). No serious Army binoculars collection is complete without a Fero D19 (the most seldom German Army Officer Binoculars)!

www.ebay.com

 

[Dennis Mau]

I wonder what these would be like, performance wise, with the reticle and laser protection removed.

Zeiss Hensoldt 10x50 M Fero D19 binoculars German Army Navy Skipper Marine B | eBay

10x50 M Fero D19 (primary color light green)from the German Army (Bundeswehr). No serious Army binoculars collection is complete without a Fero D19 (the most seldom German Army Officer Binoculars)!

www.ebay.com

I will bet they would be good performers for their age. Those are in fantastic condition. They would be cool to have! That model is very collectible.

Review: Zeiss Dienstglas 8x30 vs. Hensoldt DF 8x30 vs. Steiner Fero-D 12

Info/Opinions on Hensoldt 10x50 (Military)? - Binoculars - Cloudy Nights

Info/Opinions on Hensoldt 10x50 (Military)? - posted in Binoculars: Id like to solicit information and opinions on these Hensoldt 10x50 (military) binoculars (quantity of 18 available, it says) being auctioned on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/...RK:MEWA:IT&rd=1 At 245 USD, a pair seems not too...

www.cloudynights.com

History

These were from the 60s and late 70s early 80s the Hensoldt 10X50 Df and the Zeiss jena octarem 8X50. Named Aus jena for export, never did find out why. I used the Hensoldt as a spotting scope years ago, for target practice, the armor is cracking in places, but the optics still impressive...

www.birdforum.net

 

[Sebzwo]

Concerning the Fero D19: These were built by Zeiss and they are the current Bundeswehr german armed forces issue. But not to everybody.
They are of optical high quality and built like a tank, so robust and heavy. They are laser protected by some internal metal foil that takes away quite a bit of their otherwise very high transmission. They are sort of rare outside the military and were not permitted to be sold new in commercial stores as their custom development had been funded by the german DoD. They seem to not be built new anymore and are said to not be maintained by Zeiss anymore.
They are certainly not used by the Russian army.

 

[Dennis Mau]

This is a porro prism binocular that I bought, and I am testing because it was ranked number one in the Allbinos ranking of 8x56 binoculars even above the Zeiss 8x56 FL. It has 95% transmission and was designed by Steiner to be the best low light and brightest binocular in the world and I think they have succeeded. It is in focus from 20 m to infinity once the IF is set for each eye. It only weighs 38 oz. which is light for a 56 mm. Very high quality and built in Germany. It has a superb 3D view due to the widely spaced porro prism objectives similar to the Fujinons but this binocular is much lighter than the Fujinons. I have had the Swarovski SLC 8x56 and the Zeiss FL 8x56 and I think this is the brightest binocular I have ever looked through especially in low light. Here is a review on Cloudy Nights comparing it to the Zeiss HT 8x54, ranking on Allbinos, the review on Allbinos, and a review on BBR. Definitely not an all around birding binocular but rather a niche binocular for low light use say for Owling or Pelagic birding. The ShadowQuest 8x56 is just an updated version of the Steiner Nighthunter 8x56. It is a very interesting binocular and a bargain at $800 since it outperforms the big roofs like the Swarovski SLC 8x56 for 1/3 the cost.

The brightest premium binoculars in the world vs. Steiner Nighthunter 8x56 (2016) - Binoculars - Cloudy Nights

Page 1 of 2 - The brightest premium binoculars in the world vs. Steiner Nighthunter 8x56 (2016) - posted in Binoculars: The brightest premium binoculars in the world vs. Steiner Nighthunter 8x56 (2016) – A binocular freak’s Saturday night distraction Steiner is known to make some very good...

www.cloudynights.com

Binoculars rankings - 8x56 - AllBinos.com

The best binocular tests on the net. The comprehensive database of binoculars with their parameters and users opinions. Interesting articles and comparisons.

www.allbinos.com

Steiner Nighthunter 8x56 (2016) - binoculars review - AllBinos.com

The best binocular tests on the net. The comprehensive database of binoculars with their parameters and users opinions. Interesting articles and comparisons.

www.allbinos.com

Steiner Nighthunter 8x56 Binoculars Review

Great quality optics & coatings as well as large lenses & a moderate magnification results in low light performance that is hard to beat...

www.bestbinocularsreviews.com

 

[sidpost]

I have yet to find a set of Steiner binoculars that are compatible with my eyes. Lots of blackouts, diminished FOV, etc.

They are also a real pain to use with glasses with those 'batwing' eyecups.

 

[Dennis Mau]

I have yet to find a set of Steiner binoculars that are compatible with my eyes. Lots of blackouts, diminished FOV, etc.

They are also a real pain to use with glasses with those 'batwing' eyecups.

Try these. They have 24 mm of eye relief. You fold the bat wing eye cups down for glasses. With the big 7 mm exit pupil blackouts are nonexistent. I have tried a lot of Steiners also, and I never liked any of them that much until I tried these. These are exceptional.

 

[CharleyBird]

Nice. They look tough.

Steiner Nighthunter 8×56 (2016) – Binoculars Today

True eye relief 17mm. Bright yes, but colour fidelity?

Do they have 'Germany' or 'Made in Germany' stamped anywhere on the actual binocular?

 

[CharleyBird]

I have tried a lot of different Steiners over the years and I just never felt like they measured up to a lot of the other brands optically and I think a lot of birders feel the same way and that is why they are not discussed much on the forum. I did find the Steiner ShadowQuest 8x56 to be a pretty good binocular but ultimately I found other better 8x56 binoculars.

Which did you find that were better? The FL or the SLC?

 

[Hermann]

I wonder what these would be like, performance wise, with the reticle and laser protection removed.

Zeiss Hensoldt 10x50 M Fero D19 binoculars German Army Navy Skipper Marine B | eBay

10x50 M Fero D19 (primary color light green)from the German Army (Bundeswehr). No serious Army binoculars collection is complete without a Fero D19 (the most seldom German Army Officer Binoculars)!

www.ebay.com

I've got a Fero-D17 (7x50, FOV 130m). That pair was serviced by Zeiss after I bought it in pretty bad condition and had the laser filters and the reticle removed. Please note that when the laser filters and the reticle are removed the bins need some additional baffles, so you can't just buy one and have someone remove the laser filters and the reticle. Mine is basically as new after the service, except for some parts of the rubber armour. Optically it's very good indeed, no problems at all - sharp, bright (although not as bright as the Habicht 7x42 with the latest coatings), very good contrast. It is, however, very heavy, about 1335gr. with a strap+rain cover.

I also have the smaller brother, the Hensoldt Fero-D-16 (8x30, FOV 124m). Mine still has the laser filters and the reticle. Unfortunately Zeiss can't service these binoculars anymore because the German army started servicing them themselves, and Zeiss doesn't have any spare parts anymore. Optically it has the greenish tinge typical of binoculars with laser filters, and transmission isn't as high as with the 7x50 of course. Other than that it's a nice pair. In fact, I often take these as my spare pair on trips. They are, like all binoculars of this series, bombproof, with nicely made, thick armour.

Hermann

 

[Hermann]

Concerning the Fero D19: These were built by Zeiss and they are the current Bundeswehr german armed forces issue. But not to everybody.
They are of optical high quality and built like a tank, so robust and heavy. They are laser protected by some internal metal foil that takes away quite a bit of their otherwise very high transmission. They are sort of rare outside the military and were not permitted to be sold new in commercial stores as their custom development had been funded by the german DoD. They seem to not be built new anymore and are said to not be maintained by Zeiss anymore.
They are certainly not used by the Russian army.

The filters are actually glas filters. I've got two of those here ...

Hermann