Marsh Tit confirmation based on song (South Germany) (1 Viewer)

[mark_s]

I've seen my first Marsh Tit... err, or was it a Willow Tit? Was walking along the shore of Illmensee (lake) in South Germany. Lots of reeds, mixed woodland and very dark, spongy and moist soil (peat I guess).

If my memory serves me well, I heard a "doo dee dee dee dee dee dee dee". That's one longer "doo" followed by seven very short and uniform "dee's". The bird repeated this pattern three or four times before flying off. I could see it quite clearly through the bins, but as I'm completely new to Marsh/Willow IDing, I didn't know what visual characteristics to look out for.

Is the song sufficient for IDing?

 

[paulwfromtheden]

I've seen my first Marsh Tit... err, or was it a Willow Tit? Was walking along the shore of Illmensee (lake) in South Germany. Lots of reeds, mixed woodland and very dark, spongy and moist soil (peat I guess).

If my memory serves me well, I heard a "doo dee dee dee dee dee dee dee". That's one longer "doo" followed by seven very short and uniform "dee's". The bird repeated this pattern three or four times before flying off. I could see it quite clearly through the bins, but as I'm completely new to Marsh/Willow IDing, I didn't know what visual characteristics to look out for.

Is the song sufficient for IDing?

Sounds very much like a Blue Tit song Mark!!
The song is quite hard to id (check out the rSPB), but the call is much easier - did it 'sneeze' (pichay, pichay) (Marsh Tit) as opposed to a nazally 'zarrrr, zaarrrrr' (Willow Tit)

 

[jeff]

I've seen my first Marsh Tit... err, or was it a Willow Tit? Was walking along the shore of Illmensee (lake) in South Germany. Lots of reeds, mixed woodland and very dark, spongy and moist soil (peat I guess).

If my memory serves me well, I heard a "doo dee dee dee dee dee dee dee". That's one longer "doo" followed by seven very short and uniform "dee's". The bird repeated this pattern three or four times before flying off. I could see it quite clearly through the bins, but as I'm completely new to Marsh/Willow IDing, I didn't know what visual characteristics to look out for.

Is the song sufficient for IDing?

I'd say willow, marsh has a sort of sneezy 'pitcu' at the end.

 

[mark_s]

Sounds very much like a Blue Tit song Mark!!
The song is quite hard to id (check out the rSPB), but the call is much easier - did it 'sneeze' (pichay, pichay) (Marsh Tit) as opposed to a nazally 'zarrrr, zaarrrrr' (Willow Tit)

Hi Paul,
Definitely wasn't a Blue Tit - unless of course Blue Tits have such extreme colour variation that they have no blue in them at all! |=)| It looked like a Marsh or Willow. I'll check out the RSPB site, as you suggested, and have a listen.

 

[paulwfromtheden]

Hi Paul,
Definitely wasn't a Blue Tit - unless of course Blue Tits have such extreme colour variation that they have no blue in them at all! |=)| It looked like a Marsh or Willow. I'll check out the RSPB site, as you suggested, and have a listen.

Doh!! Wasn't suggesting it was a Blue Tit, sorry! Even I know the difference.
One useful guide is whether both species are present in the area. For example in Surrey a Marsh/Willow is a Marsh, as Willows have not been recorded for a while.

 

[mark_s]

Sounds very much like a Blue Tit song Mark!!
The song is quite hard to id (check out the rSPB), but the call is much easier - did it 'sneeze' (pichay, pichay) (Marsh Tit) as opposed to a nazally 'zarrrr, zaarrrrr' (Willow Tit)

I think it sounds very much like the second half of the RSPB's Marsh Tit recording - the chup, chup, chup, chup bit. I don't remember it having the slight slurred and elongated sound of the Willow. It was more of a terse and choppy "chup" or "dee". If I ignore WHAT it said and concentrate on HOW it said it, then I'm pretty sure about Marsh now.

(Can Marsh songs vary as much as, say, Blue Tit and Great Tit?)

 

[mark_s]

Doh!! Wasn't suggesting it was a Blue Tit, sorry! Even I know the difference.

|=)|

One useful guide is whether both species are present in the area. For example in Surrey a Marsh/Willow is a Marsh, as Willows have not been recorded for a while.

That's a good tip... I'll look into that. Thanks Paul.

 

[rob stoff]

Doh!! Wasn't suggesting it was a Blue Tit, sorry! Even I know the difference.
One useful guide is whether both species are present in the area. For example in Surrey a Marsh/Willow is a Marsh, as Willows have not been recorded for a while.

and are unlikely to be in the future....

Rob

 

[paulwfromtheden]

and are unlikely to be in the future....

Rob

Any reason why Rob? Loss of habitat? Or a combinantion of factors?

 

[rob stoff]

Any reason why Rob? Loss of habitat? Or a combinantion of factors?

was being facetious; because all Willow/Marsh are being identified as Marsh by default!

Rob

 

[KnockerNorton]

I'd say willow, marsh has a sort of sneezy 'pitcu' at the end.

No it doesn't.

Marsh have at least 7 songs (per individual), one of which is very like a Willow (which only seem to have 2, and one of those is uncommon).

The most common Marsh song types are like the one below, a bit like a Great Tit but not as ringing. They all have a similar tempo, which is twice the speed of Willow's main song (although Marsh does have a slower song that sounds like Willow, but it's still faster)

Willow's main song is a slow whsitling siu siu siu, as in the two Willow Tit songs on this website: http://www.putni.lv/index_balsis_eng.htm

The marsh Tit song on there is another fairly common variant, which varies in speed and pitch, but you can hear the differences in tempo, which is the best i.d. guide for song. If you slow the Marsh Tit down by 50% it will sound a lot more like Willow.

That RSPB recording is absolutely appalling, and of little use. You can hear a similarly poor recoridng on the RSPB Willow Tit page, which has a bit of song that you can just about pick out.

 

[mark_s]

No it doesn't.

Marsh have at least 7 songs (per individual), one of which is very like a Willow (which only seem to have 2, and one of those is uncommon).

The most common Marsh song types are like the one below, a bit like a Great Tit but not as ringing. They all have a similar tempo, which is twice the speed of Willow's main song (although Marsh does have a slower song that sounds like Willow, but it's still faster)

Willow's main song is a slow whsitling siu siu siu, as in the two Willow Tit songs on this website: http://www.putni.lv/index_balsis_eng.htm

The marsh Tit song on there is another fairly common variant, which varies in speed and pitch, but you can hear the differences in tempo, which is the best i.d. guide for song. If you slow the Marsh Tit down by 50% it will sound a lot more like Willow.

That RSPB recording is absolutely appalling, and of little use. You can hear a similarly poor recoridng on the RSPB Willow Tit page, which has a bit of song that you can just about pick out.

Thanks for the info, Poecile. I listened to the songs on the Latvian Birding link - their Marsh Tits are much faster and the Willow Tits are slower than the bird I heard. However, the recording you provided as an attachment is very much like the song I heard - similar sound and in particular a very similar tempo. So I guess Marsh Tit is very likely.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Thanks for the info, Poecile. I listened to the songs on the Latvian Birding link - their Marsh Tits are much faster and the Willow Tits are slower than the bird I heard. However, the recording you provided as an attachment is very much like the song I heard - similar sound and in particular a very similar tempo. So I guess Marsh Tit is very likely.

The main thing is that Willow Tits almost always sound like the recording, so if it didn't sound like that then it will be a Marsh Tit variant, of which there are many.

 

[jeff]

No it doesn't.

Why does it tell me this in books and on id videos. Apparently this is a diagnostic feature of the song.

Even the wiki page has this:

" Like the other chickadees it has a large range of call notes; most typical it the explosive 'pitchou' note"

Might as well chuck all these things away then..........

 

[KnockerNorton]

Why does it tell me this in books and on id videos. Apparently this is a diagnostic feature of the song.

Even the wiki page has this:

" Like the other chickadees it has a large range of call notes; most typical it the explosive 'pitchou' note"

Might as well chuck all these things away then..........

the 'pitchou' thing is a call, not a song. Totally different. Songs never contain a 'pitchou' element.

It also tells you in the books that Willow Tits don't come to feeders, cap gloss is a reliable feature and bib size is important in i.d. Don't believe everything you read in books.

 

[jeff]

Got to start somewhere