Mis-handling of raptors by ringers/banders? (2 Viewers)

[JedHarrison]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of various handling techniques, falconers (unregulated, no formal training and handling tame birds) are not best placed to advise ringers (highly regulated, trained for several years and handling skittish wild birds). No more than a chicken farmer is, imo.

I disagree with this point. We can all learn from falconers, and i think that they may have a lot to say about the topic of this post. I have several falconer friends and they have taught me a great deal about birds of prey, they have the condition of the birds as their priority and so should ringers.

I would ask falconers their opinion on this topic.

 

[Firetail]

I dont think that such views should be dismissed so freely, it may be true that the training levels are very different but this is a valid comment.
if a falconer, who has a great deal of experience handling birds of prey, says that it is not acceptable, then ringers should perhaps listen. Falconers have a vested interest in keeping their birds in perfect condition ( for displays or hunting) and so should we as ringers. Maybe we can use the expertise in the falconry world to discuss the topic.

How would your advise ringers to handle any birds of prey that are caught, bearing in mind that they are not tame?

how do you hold birds of prey if you want to take a photo of a wing?

do you ever hold falcons, owls with just one hand like this?

How do you typically restrain the feet of your birds when holding- whilst ensuring that they cannot flap their wings.

maybe we can learn something here, but i would not be surprised if agressive responses to a valid post scares away falconers (as it appears to have done with the originator of this post!)

Obviously Jed there are those interested in debate and also those happy to enter into beneficial discussions i.e. the pro’s and con’s of handling techniques for raptor species. Falconers may well have some input or good practise to dispense on this thread, but then again you get posts like the one from a falconer Keithmills61 who posted more or less exactly the same anti-ringing post on a similar thread here (he also chooses to ignore answers to his post), see my last post re people like this.

If you read through this current thread you will see how hard it is to discuss the original query with so many just posting criticisms and nothing else! I can see Black Wheatear’s point in his 1st post here being proven with each subsequent posting. I think it is a shame Falconbirder has not responded by giving his view on the method he prefers for handling raptors. Perhaps if he can condescend to re-enter this thread with a clue as to what he sees as best practise, then maybe, but don’t hold your breath, this thread might get back on-track!!

 

[rozinante]

A reasonable explanation is pretty easy really.

I had already worked out that you were engaged in an on going battle, I was realy looking for an explanation as to why you chose to attack me. I will just put it down to over exitement No matter realy, just curious.

I cannot be certain what you are implying here, but I suppose by redundant you mean that if my car hits a bird while I'm going birding, it is a different kettle of fish should my drive be for the purpose of going ringing

Seriously though, what is wrong with ringing if I enjoy it, recognise the potential problems for the birds, and take all the precautions I can to ensure their safety?. I do the same with my feeders - baffles to prevent cats approaching, thick vegetation close-by for escape from aerial predators, shifting ground feed to different spots and using bird-table specific, cleaning powder to avert disease transmission. No doubt you do all these things and more at your feeders?.

I wasn't implying anything. I clearly stated that I considered the "obvious truisms" you raised were "redundant in this discussion". Sorry but I just don't get your joke.


"what is wrong with ringing if I enjoy it"

Perhaps you should ask someone who has suggested that there is something wrong with it.

 

[Firetail]

I had already worked out that you were engaged in an on going battle, I was realy looking for an explanation as to why you chose to attack me. I will just put it down to over exitement No matter realy, just curious.

Eerrr, I was unaware I was attacking you Rozinante? I referred to previous postings/persons who repeatedly bang on and on with the same questions etc.

So relax in the knowledge you have not been personally attacked.

 

[vermivoracelata]

I disagree with this point. We can all learn from falconers, and i think that they may have a lot to say about the topic of this post. I have several falconer friends and they have taught me a great deal about birds of prey, they have the condition of the birds as their priority and so should ringers.

I would ask falconers their opinion on this topic.

I think that there is a significant difference between birds that have been kept and raised in captivity and that on wild birds. In my opinion, that amount that a falconer could teach anyone, would be limited, due to the nature of their life in captivity and relative subsequent loss of environmental factors impacting their survival.

I assure you, all ringers have the birds safety as their priority.

 

[Black Wheatear]

Bearing in mind that falconry has no regulatory body, and there is nobody to specify approved methods and take away your right to practice falconry if you don't follow them, then you can do pretty much what you like within the scope of the law of the land. You don't even have to undergo any training. At all. And, bearing in mind that your birds are pets and are thus tame, and often hand-reared, and quietly sit on your hand, then it's a somewhat different kettle of fish from restraining wild birds for ringing.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of various handling techniques, falconers (unregulated, no formal training and handling tame birds) are not best placed to advise ringers (highly regulated, trained for several years and handling skittish wild birds).

I think that there is a significant difference between birds that have been kept and raised in captivity and that on wild birds. In my opinion, that amount that a falconer could teach anyone, would be limited, due to the nature of their life in captivity and relative subsequent loss of environmental factors impacting their survival.

I assure you, all ringers have the birds safety as their priority.

I would add my agreement to Poecile and Peter’s views. I disagree with your contention Jed and Derek for the same reasons as the above quotes. I was extremely surprised to see one falconer Keithmills61 post again after his involvement on the last thread on impacts! In so far as this falconer is concerned I would echo Derek’s remarks, that is read and follow-up on your replies!

 

[j toon]

I don`t think some people realise that birds taken from captive parents for example say: goshawks, are bred in complete enclosed enclosures apart from half the roof. This means that the young have no contact with humans at all, apart from the ringing process when just a few days old, even the food is fed through a pipe onto feeding tables. so these birds are as wild as wild ones when taken out for manning. ( first part of training ).. the bird has to trust the falconer and i can tell you now even a fully trained bird wouldn`t like to be held up by it`s wings.

 

[KnockerNorton]

what it all boils down to is separating out personal opinions (be they of ringers or falconers or anti-ringers) from evidence. Nobody has, as yet, provided any evidence that the handling techniques shown have resulted in injuries or meaningful problems for the birds (the loss of a few contour feathers is not a problem) that would ultimately affect their survival. I accept that this data is difficult to collect, but it should be fairly obvious if holding birds in a certain way during ringing meant that they were clearly injured on release. There'd be plenty of reports from ringers. Studies following individuals would also flag up problems (eg individuals going missing soon after handling). Enough raptors have been ringed and studied for any evidence to appear, I think.

The BTO has a standards committee, which collects, analyses and pontificates on these issues. They are quite strict and conservative in their approach, from what i have seen. And I'm fairly confident that this handling technique would be proscribed it there were any evidence that it was more harmful than others. There is no reason why they would continue to support a bad handling technique, when other better ones are already in use. Falconers have no such body looking at these issues, so while I'd always listen to what they have to say on some aspects, I don't think the opinion of falconers has got much clout on this one bearing in mind the difference in the birds handled.

Opinion without evidence is called superstition. Evidence leading opinion is called enlightenment. There's a lot of superstition on this thread.

 

[KnockerNorton]

I don`t think some people realise that birds taken from captive parents for example say: goshawks, are bred in complete enclosed enclosures apart from half the roof. This means that the young have no contact with humans at all, apart from the ringing process when just a few days old, even the food is fed through a pipe onto feeding tables. so these birds are as wild as wild ones when taken out for manning. ( first part of training ).. the bird has to trust the falconer and i can tell you now even a fully trained bird wouldn`t like to be held up by it`s wings.

It doesn't matter how they're reared. What is unavoidable is that they're eventually trained to sit on the fist (and many falconers birds are hand-reared anyway). They are then, by definition, tame. No wild bird will sit on a ringers fist. There's no getting away from that difference.

 

[talon_dfa]

...Nobody has, as yet, provided any evidence that the handling techniques shown have resulted in injuries or meaningful problems for the birds (the loss of a few contour feathers is not a problem) that would ultimately affect their survival...

...but I have seen small raptors being held that way have their primaries bent in the process...

As noted in my earlier post, I have seen serious bending of primary feathers of a female sharp-shinned hawk caused by an inexperienced handler holding the bird as the original example "a". I am not sure how it happened, because I did not see, but it happed during an explosive struggle as the bird tried to free itself.

Luckily, hot water was sufficient to straighten the feathers and the bird was released only after a short time. I never did hold birds in that manner and have not allowed inexperienced handlers working with me to do so again.

I learned the hot water trick from a falconry book.

I do agree with Poecile that there is a lot of superstition floating around this thread.

As for some of these other remarks...

I don't know how to respond to people that think we have learned all there is to learn about banding/ringing or that there is nothing to learn from falconers or keepers of captive birds.

 

[JedHarrison]

i think that falconers can indeed share their knowledge with the ringers and vice versa. There has been quite a bit of evidence suggesting that these handling techniques may cause damage to the birds. we have seen personnal observations written down and photographs. If you want to see more evidence then a simple web search will lead to many more photos of questionable intentions and aims, showing what amounts to bad handling. -i understand that most of these are not UK based, but nor is this thread.

The main idea of this thread, i thought, was to come up with a consensus about the best way to handle raptors, acknowledging that we want to get a good record shot and a photo of the wing in cases of hybridisation, or rarity. how best to get these photos?

i would also ask to get a general consensus on the one-handed handling of owls, nightjars and even a beeeater- easy to find with a web search. trophy shots again i am afraid.

People that regualrly handle raptors would be well placed to advise.

we are not talking always about life threatening damage directly- birds may fly away, but still suffer greater damage than is necessary...

i have yet to find examples of these handling or holding techniques from the UK. perhaps it is not those ringers that this thread could be informative to, but those whose ringing scheme in not so strict as in the UK. People learning to catch birds from around the world may read this..


Form my perspective, an in my observations, i have concerns about these handling techniques. and i would encourage any debate that may help future banders to safeguard their birds. Two othe rposters also have concerns about these techniques.

for a debate on the best way to handle these birds it is not necessary to have a lawsuit style evidence case, one observation is sufficient to raise the question.

i for one would never hold birds in the manner depicted by these photgraphs, and believe that many experts have suggested alternative methods of holding birds that are far better.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Jed, can you give any references or links to the evidence you cite? Evidence of damage and harm, not just more photos of birds being held in a certain manner? If there's "quite a bit" then some will be published and available for scrutiny. So far, nobody has posted anything on this thread that can be called evidence.

It's one thing to have concerns, which i sympathise with, it's another for them to be supported. I'm afraid that if someone wants to change the behaviour of a large number of people, and official recommendations, then a body of evidence IS necessary. The question has been raised, but nobody seems able to support it or prove that it's worth lsitening to.

I woudn't necessarily hold a raptor like that, and I think I've let my opinion be known on trophy shots(!), but what I don't want is for someone to be able to dictate what and what isn't permissable or 'correct' based on their own interpretations of photos taken when they were not present or in circumstances for which they have no experience.

 

[JedHarrison]

Jed, can you give any references or links to the evidence you cite? Evidence of damage and harm, not just more photos of birds being held in a certain manner? If there's "quite a bit" then some will be published and available for scrutiny. So far, nobody has posted anything on this thread that can be called evidence.

It's one thing to have concerns, which i sympathise with, it's another for them to be supported. I'm afraid that if someone wants to change the behaviour of a large number of people, and official recommendations, then a body of evidence IS necessary. The question has been raised, but nobody seems able to support it or prove that it's worth lsitening to.

I woudn't necessarily hold a raptor like that, and I think I've let my opinion be known on trophy shots(!), but what I don't want is for someone to be able to dictate what and what isn't permissable or 'correct' based on their own interpretations of photos taken when they were not present or in circumstances for which they have no experience.

I have a good deal of experience ringing birds, and seeing both good and bad practice all over the world, from several sites that these photos have come from, to my own ringing sites. Photos are evidence and are a very good way to monitor ringing practices, i think such photos should be welcomed, interpreted and commented upon where necessary.

The only evidence that i have is personal experience of badly handled birds,
there have been some references to personal experiences of these handling practices that have been negative. For an individual this is enough to ask questions. i have seen mishandling of passerines and of raptors and to think that someone has trained these pepole and spread bad parctice( even with innocent intentions) seems to me to be worth altering

The evidence you seek is probably impossible to obtain, evidence that the birds handled in a certain manner that suffered... i am assuming you mean died...not really possible or practical to obtain. this would require deliberate experiments on the two techniques, with follow up observations of behavior, flight, reproduction and survival. there are no species for which this data exists. Also there are no data for which the opposite exisits, that these exact practices do no harm. As you may know, these studies, should they occur will never get published.... and the question is not about scientific rigour- just a question from people with direct experience.

What we have here is personal experiences alone, this is indeed enough to raise a question. if you have had not such personal experinces then that is great, but not evidence for these handling techniques, if you have good experiences then please share them,

how do you handle raptors:

one handed?

two handed?

do you extract them, place them in a bag and ring by one leg whilst the bird is still in the bag (to keep it calm) and the release?

or do you give it a bird bag to hold whilst taking measurements?

do you measure full wingspan by holding 4 primaries ( photos on the web)??



I respect your views on trophy shots, i have not heard a single argument against these views. indeed i share these views, as do the majority of banding organisations. they should be avoided at all costs.

I do not wish to alter laws or rules, merely find out how to handle birds, what techniques work and what do not. i also want to hear from anyone that has experience with handling raptors... whatever their experience!

 

[Black Wheatear]

I think this thread got off on the wrong foot. We were presented with photos depicting raptors held in a position which were described as being harmful to those individuals shown. Very clearly this was ‘only’ the opinion of Falconbirder and no evidence was offered to demonstrate actual harm was, or was likely to be, caused using the illustrated handling methods. If the thread had started simply asking other ringers what they thought of this technique, then I am sure we could have had a sensible debate and exchange of ideas. My initial reaction to this thread was ‘here we go again’ anti-ringing posts and all the other matters dealt with in the recent ‘Impacts Thread’. To some extent a number of postings here vindicated my first reaction!

It is frustrating and disappointing to know we cannot have a sensible discussion on aspects of ringing between ringers without the constant interference by those not involved. Perhaps a membership to a ‘Ringer’s Forum’ might be an idea, what do you think?

 

[KnockerNorton]

Photos are evidence and are a very good way to monitor ringing practices, i think such photos should be welcomed, interpreted and commented upon where necessary.

Photos are merely pictures showing how the bird is being held, they are not evidence that the bird is being harmed (how can you see wing strain, fractured metacarpals in a photo?).

The only evidence that i have is personal experience of badly handled birds,

and what are these experiences? Can you elaborate? Have you passed this on to the BTO to consider in their guidelines?

The evidence you seek is probably impossible to obtain, evidence that the birds handled in a certain manner that suffered... i am assuming you mean died...not really possible or practical to obtain. this would require deliberate experiments on the two techniques, with follow up observations of behavior, flight, reproduction and survival. there are no species for which this data exists.

I disagree - if a handling technique has harmed a bird -and we're talking some kind of wing or body damage here, then at least some of them would not have flown on release, they'd have 'flopped' with a fractured furculum wing strain or something. Plenty of raptors have been studied intensively - sparrowhawk and mauritius kestrel and barn owl to name a few off the top of my head. Population studies such as these would clearly show if an individual disappeared or was in difficulty soon after handling, and warning bells would be going off in the ringers concerned. So, there would be at least some records of birds being crippled to some extent during ringing, and possibly some records of increased mortality during population studies.

Also there are no data for which the opposite exisits, that these exact practices do no harm.

the fact that no birds were reported crippled during ringing, and no increased mortality was seen in populations studies would be a hint...but then to use proof of that kind of negative would rule out all ringing - there is no data that any handling technique results in no harm.

As you may know, these studies, should they occur will never get published.... and the question is not about scientific rigour- just a question from people with direct experience.

No, because they'd get reported to the ringing authorities (such as the BTO) as casulaties, if there was an obvious tangible problem. Unless the ringers were burying such evidence the world over, which is hard to credit.

What we have here is personal experiences alone, this is indeed enough to raise a question.

but by that token anyone can raise any question they like - I've seen a cat kill a bird in a net, so should ringing be carried out in gardens? Some questions require more attention than others, based on the evidence produced to support them. I'll say again, we've got posters saying they've seen or have the evidence ("it's in the photo!"), but nobody has shown me evidence of a damaged bird yet.

Regarding raptors - I never ring any! But This is about handling per se, not just raptors - it applied to any bird I think. And for bigger birds, yes, I do ring them in the bag to keep them calm, slipping a leg and wing out to ring/measure. I don't do full wingspan. I ring on my own, so I find it much easier to deal with a bigger bird (bigger than a collared dove) that way.

I respect your views on trophy shots, i have not heard a single argument against these views. indeed i share these views, as do the majority of banding organisations. they should be avoided at all costs.

Any trip to an observatory in autumn, or flick through a birding magazine, will tell you that plenty of ringers ignore that advice.

I do not wish to alter laws or rules, merely find out how to handle birds, what techniques work and what do not. i also want to hear from anyone that has experience with handling raptors... whatever their experience!

I appreciate that, and I'm not having a personal pop or a p1ss take, but what i want to do is make sure that we all deal in facts and evidence, not impression and opinion.

 

[rozinante]

Perhaps a membership to a ‘Ringer’s Forum’ might be an idea, what do you think?QUOTE]

I suspect that not being a ringer you are not interested what I think!

 

[KnockerNorton]

Perhaps a membership to a ‘Ringer’s Forum’ might be an idea, what do you think?QUOTE]

I suspect that not being a ringer you are not interested what I think!

Interested is one thing, the weight attached to it is another. Would you be interested in Black Wheatear's opinions if you had a health problem, or would you go to a doctor?

 

[Collster]

I think this thread got off on the wrong foot. We were presented with photos depicting raptors held in a position which were described as being harmful to those individuals shown. Very clearly this was ‘only’ the opinion of Falconbirder and no evidence was offered to demonstrate actual harm was, or was likely to be, caused using the illustrated handling methods. If the thread had started simply asking other ringers what they thought of this technique, then I am sure we could have had a sensible debate and exchange of ideas. My initial reaction to this thread was ‘here we go again’ anti-ringing posts and all the other matters dealt with in the recent ‘Impacts Thread’. To some extent a number of postings here vindicated my first reaction!

It is frustrating and disappointing to know we cannot have a sensible discussion on aspects of ringing between ringers without the constant interference by those not involved. Perhaps a membership to a ‘Ringer’s Forum’ might be an idea, what do you think?

What are you on about, if you are a member of bird forum it entitles you to express your opinion on any number of issues. It seems to me that certain ringers are quite prepared to discuss and educate us non ringers on ringing matters whilst others just throw their toys out of the pram. Im not a ringer but i have seen several instances where raptors(in particular)have been handled in a way that does not seem comfortable for the bird, i have purposely not expressed an opinion as i dont want to be accused of stirring things up. If you are upset about the postings of non ringers dont bother replying




ringers

 

[Black Wheatear]

rozinante;1096071 = I suspect that not being a ringer you are not interested what I think!

Well actually rozinante that is not true, but on a technical level you would have nothing to contribute on ringing, that is my point. I think if you look through my postings, then you will find I have answered queries politely and as best as I can. If you have a thread dealing with technical issues and discussions on the use of these whilst ringing, what contribution is there for non-ringers?

Poecile;1096080 =
Interested is one thing, the weight attached to it is another. Would you be interested in Black Wheatear's opinions if you had a health problem, or would you go to a doctor?

Poecile sums it up quite nicely and this is also my point.

 

[Black Wheatear]

What are you on about, if you are a member of bird forum it entitles you to express your opinion on any number of issues.

I might well ask you the same question! It would be more helpful if you could engage your brain before you start typing on your keyboard. We are talking about threads of a technical nature where ringers are asked by their fellow ringers for advice or opinions, where or how does that involve you?