New Old Trinovids (2 Viewers)

[Troubador]

Show me the technical literature that says a UP prism is superior to an SP with modern coatings. The UP prism has less reflective surfaces but with modern coatings an SP will perform as well. These new Retrovid's have 90% transmission I read and that is pretty good. I doubt the old Trinovid's had that high of transmission with their single coated lenses, no phase coatings and inferior glass. Leica used UP prisms in the 60's because they didn't have the coatings they do now and there was an advantage in transmission. Leica didn't need to use UP prisms in these with modern coatings. You can't believe all the technical literature you read either it might have been written by a guy like you. The guy's on Cloudy Night's are pretty knowledgeable.

Dennis SP prisms have two surfaces that have to be both transmitters and reflectors at the same time. They can't do both jobs equally well so they end up being a compromise.

I am very open to being corrected if I have not understood this correctly.

Lee

 

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Dennis SP prisms have two surfaces that have to be both transmitters and reflectors at the same time. They can't do both jobs equally well so they end up being a compromise.

I am very open to being corrected if I have not understood this correctly.

Lee

Lee. My point is even if there is an advantage to UP prisms Leica didn't feel they needed to use them. With the modern coatings, better glass, and phase coatings the new Retrovids with SP prisms probably have 10% higher transmission than the old Trinovids with the UP prisms. UP prisms are just of historical interest IMO. I don't see any manufacturer ever using them again.

 

[PYRTLE]

In the end, it just is what it is. Personal preferences. In that situation both sides are, well, just both sides.

Agree, it's done, in production and going out to be enjoyed by the owners. No amount of " should have done this or that" , " will change things. Despite the doubt surrounding these "retro" ever coming out into the market place for quite a while, they're here for real. Leica may well be crticised for other aspects of their Sports Optics operations, but they have introduced a new product, albeit slightly niche.

 

[PYRTLE]

Addendum to my last post.

Is it all about how an item looks or what's inside? I would cite other items such as cars, watches and the like.
You could purchase a 1960s AC Shelby Cobra for $5 million or a new modern retro version for around $50k ( better and cleaner engine performance ).

Surely, the "Retrovid" outperforms it's original stablemate?

 

[ceasar]

Bob:

Your points are well stated, but this is all explained above. The Trinovid model has been Leica's most
significant model ever produced, easily the largest volume seller for over 40 years.

So you do need to know about Leica sports optics history. This retro model of an older Trinovid is
just a welcome addition to the Trinovid lineup. Retro means bringing back something from the past.

If some on the site are excited about calling this model "Retrovid", be a good sport and play along.

I welcome the new model, there is no confusion at all here.

Jerry

Jerry,

You are right that it is all explained above -- and that is the problem. It has to be re-explained to new people who will be accessing this forum in the future.

But be that as it may; do you know if the new 7x35 "Retrovid" with the SP prisms will have an 8.5º FOV like the most recent Trinovids from 2017 did?

https://www.allbinos.com/1887-Leica_Trinovid_7x35-binoculars_specifications.html

I am interested in finding our how it will be accomplished.

And, if you go back to 1981-1983 you will also find another LeitzTrinovid 7x35 BA with the same FOV.

https://www.allbinos.com/1887-Leica_Trinovid_7x35-binoculars_specifications.html

And then there is also a Leitz Trinovid 7x35 B manufactured from 1965 to 1983.

https://www.allbinos.com/1638-Leitz_Trinovid_7x35_B-binoculars_specifications.html

I wonder if the "Retrovid" should be clarified by Leica whether it is from the Leitz line of Trinovids or from the newer, never distributed, line of Leica Trinovids?



Bob

 

[PYRTLE]

But be that as it may; do you know if the new 7x35 "Retrovid" with the SP prisms will have an 8.5º FOV like the old Trinovid did?
https://www.allbinos.com/1887-Leica_Trinovid_7x35-binoculars_specifications.html
Bob

Surely that link and page is no longer accurate eg, it states the unit is nitrogen filled and waterproof, so can we compare if Leica have changed the goalposts some 2 years later? The UK website states Splashproof.

Remember this thread?https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=353066

P

 

[[email protected]]

Addendum to my last post.

Is it all about how an item looks or what's inside? I would cite other items such as cars, watches and the like.
You could purchase a 1960s AC Shelby Cobra for $5 million or a new modern retro version for around $50k ( better and cleaner engine performance ).

Surely, the "Retrovid" outperforms it's original stablemate?

Yes, but you won't see Ford making an original 1960s AC Shelby Cobra in 2020. The parts themselves would be hard to find. Just like I imagine Leica would have a hard time sourcing UP prisms and I doubt if anybody even makes them. The original Trinovids garner a good price on Ebay for their condition also from $600 to $900 dollars.

 

[PYRTLE]

Yes, but you won't see Ford making an original 1960s AC Shelby Cobra in 2020.

Agree, but I'm sure they produced a limited run of lookalike GT40s with modern engines and gearboxes, a few years back. I'm all for the concept of the new Trinovid by the way.
Regards,
P

 

[ceasar]

Yes, but you won't see Ford making an original 1960s AC Shelby Cobra in 2020. The parts themselves would be hard to find. Just like I imagine Leica would have a hard time sourcing UP prisms and I doubt if anybody even make them. The original Trinovids garner a good price on Ebay for their condition also from $600 to $900 dollars.

Dennis,

Since you are using cars as an analogy why don't you just say that the "Retrovids" have been "retro-fitted" with SP prisms? The geeks will ask for details but that comes with the territory!

Anyway, if worst comes to worst the UP prisms could be outsourced to Japan.:smoke:

Bob

 

[ceasar]

Surely that link and page is no longer accurate eg, it states the unit is nitrogen filled and waterproof, so can we compare if Leica have changed the goalposts some 2 years later? The UK website states Splashproof.

Remember this thread?https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=353066

P

It doesn't matter. They were never released to the public as far as I know.

It makes the release of the so-called Retrovids look like an after thought. (Durn burn it! What are we going to do with those Trinovids we didn't release in 2017?):C

 

[MandoBear]

Hello 45northmt,

Retrovid should be = Glass , Brass , Leather and NO PLASTICS .

3

Cheers.

Even the originals had rubber gaskets in them.

 

[45northmt]

Hello 45northmt,

Retrovid should be = Glass , Brass , Leather and NO PLASTICS .

3

Cheers.

Well, the original had rubber eyecups (and later armoring), and PLASTIC... the focus knob and diopter adjuster were/are PLASTIC.

Cheers.

 

[[email protected]]

Dennis,

Since you are using cars as an analogy why don't you just say that the "Retrovids" have been "retro-fitted" with SP prisms? The geeks will ask for details but that comes with the territory!

Anyway, if worst comes to worst the UP prisms could be outsourced to Japan.:smoke:

Bob

I would bet the SP prisms in the new Retrovid are outsourced from Japan.

 

[[email protected]]

Well, the original had rubber eyecups (and later armoring), and PLASTIC... the focus knob and diopter adjuster were/are PLASTIC.

Cheers.

Yes, but they had higher quality plastic back in the 60's.:-O

 

[henry link]

Any chance of moving the discussion of the optics beyond the prism type? I'd still very much like to see photos made through the front of the binocular showing reflections returning from the lenses in front of the prism as well as the position of those lenses at both close and infinity focus.

In photos of the new vs the old ones it appears that the prisms are positioned closer to the eyepieces in the new ones and have longer objective barrels. Could someone measure the length between front glass surface of the objective and the rear glass surface of the eyepiece in the new ones compared to the old ones?

Henry

 

[Hermann]

Well, the original had rubber eyecups (and later armoring), and PLASTIC... the focus knob and diopter adjuster were/are PLASTIC.

My mother has got one of the original Leica Trinovids. The focusing wheel is made of aluminium. The diopter adjuster is made of plastics.

Hermann

 

[F88]

Show me the technical literature that says a UP prism is superior to an SP with modern coatings. The UP prism has less reflective surfaces but with modern coatings an SP will perform as well. These new Retrovid's have 90% transmission I read and that is pretty good. I doubt the old Trinovid's had that high of transmission with their single coated lenses, no phase coatings and inferior glass. Leica used UP prisms in the 60's because they didn't have the coatings they do now and there was an advantage in transmission. Leica didn't need to use UP prisms in these with modern coatings. You can't believe all the technical literature you read either it might have been written by a guy like you. The guy's on Cloudy Night's are pretty knowledgeable.

I think what's happening here is that people may have liked UP to be true to the originals and also what improvements there may be with a modern coatings/glass UP.
On the other side, as Dennis mentioned, the Retrovid with its SP is performing very well.
As has been discussed it's most likely that going UP would have been prohibitive in production and cost.
From those who have them/tried them, the Retrovid are quite decent performers and from what I'm gathering are better than I had anticipated (haven't seen for myself however).
The Retrovid is more than just a pretty face so it seems.

 

[Hermann]

Show me the technical literature that says a UP prism is superior to an SP with modern coatings. The UP prism has less reflective surfaces but with modern coatings an SP will perform as well. These new Retrovid's have 90% transmission I read and that is pretty good. I doubt the old Trinovid's had that high of transmission with their single coated lenses, no phase coatings and inferior glass. Leica used UP prisms in the 60's because they didn't have the coatings they do now and there was an advantage in transmission. Leica didn't need to use UP prisms in these with modern coatings. You can't believe all the technical literature you read either it might have been written by a guy like you. The guy's on Cloudy Night's are pretty knowledgeable.

Lots of speculation and no knowledge. The problem isn't so much a loss of transmission, it's a loss of micro contrast, cf. e.g.:

Konrad Seil: Problems in binocular design, Proc. of SPIE, Vol. 1533, p. 48, 1992.

Holger Merlitz: Handferngläser. Funktion, Leistung, Auswahl. 2nd edition, 2019, Chapter 5: Umkehrsysteme, p. 51-69, especially p. 58-61.

BTW, Konrad Seil designed the optical system of the Swarovski EL and the Zeiss SF, just in case you didn't know.

The SP has ONE advantage over the Uppendahl and the AK: It is very compact and lightweight.

Hermann

 

[Kevin Conville]

Jerry,

You are right that it is all explained above -- and that is the problem. It has to be re-explained to new people who will be accessing this forum in the future.

But be that as it may; do you know if the new 7x35 "Retrovid" with the SP prisms will have an 8.5º FOV like the most recent Trinovids from 2017 did?

https://www.allbinos.com/1887-Leica_Trinovid_7x35-binoculars_specifications.html

I am interested in finding our how it will be accomplished.

And, if you go back to 1981-1983 you will also find another LeitzTrinovid 7x35 BA with the same FOV.

https://www.allbinos.com/1887-Leica_Trinovid_7x35-binoculars_specifications.html

And then there is also a Leitz Trinovid 7x35 B manufactured from 1965 to 1983.

https://www.allbinos.com/1638-Leitz_Trinovid_7x35_B-binoculars_specifications.html

I wonder if the "Retrovid" should be clarified by Leica whether it is from the Leitz line of Trinovids or from the newer, never distributed, line of Leica Trinovids?



Bob

Bob, come on.
You seem to be determined to create or maintain confusion regarding the Retrovids.

First, the 2017 version of these was/is mythology. Words on a page.

After that, who cares what it's exact lineage is? The analogies to Cobras or any other modern reproduction are appropriate. They're not strictly faithful to the originals and aren't intended to be.

You also don't seem to like the fact they're called Trinovids because of the lack of clarity as to what that name means. I say who cares? It's really Leica's problem to address, if at all. Retrovid describes this bin. We all now know what that means.

Leica may never adopt Retrovid as a moniker but with use it can become universal. I doubt a newby will have confusion for long regarding the two Trinovids in Leica's lineup considering the appearance and price differences along with the ad copy that accompanies both.

Ford's had a lot of Mustangs over a lot of years. It may take a sentence or two instead of a single word but people figure it out pretty quick which one they mean. Retrovid, for this Trinovid, cuts through it all with a single word.

Maybe a sticky is in order.

 

[[email protected]]

Lots of speculation and no knowledge. The problem isn't so much a loss of transmission, it's a loss of micro contrast, cf. e.g.:

Konrad Seil: Problems in binocular design, Proc. of SPIE, Vol. 1533, p. 48, 1992.

Holger Merlitz: Handferngläser. Funktion, Leistung, Auswahl. 2nd edition, 2019, Chapter 5: Umkehrsysteme, p. 51-69, especially p. 58-61.

BTW, Konrad Seil designed the optical system of the Swarovski EL and the Zeiss SF, just in case you didn't know.

The SP has ONE advantage over the Uppendahl and the AK: It is very compact and lightweight.

Hermann

Hermann. Let me ask you this if the UP prism is the "Cat's Meow" why didn't Swarovski or Zeiss use them in their alpha binoculars like the SV or SF? I would think if their designers saw a major benefit in using UP prism's they would have used them instead of SP prisms. Obviously they decided when you consider everything the SP prism would be a better choice.