Owen Krout
Well-known member
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Nordmann's Greenshank ? - Yingkou, Liaoning, China (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Owen Krout
- Start date
Rotherbirder
Well-known member
Common Greenshank for me.
RB
RB
MJB
Well-known member
Legs and bill too long for Nordmann's Greenshank, unfortunately. Nordmann's legs are usually yellow or greenish, but the legs in your images are just silhouettes.
MJB
Owen Krout
Well-known member
Thanks for the input. Just impressed me as being heavier and shorter legged than the Greenshank I've seen before. Also the spread in flight tail lacked the barring. The legs were mud covered, so no help on the color.
Ah well, a fun day birding anyway and huge numbers of Bar Tailed Godwit!
Ah well, a fun day birding anyway and huge numbers of Bar Tailed Godwit!
johnallcock
Well-known member
Really? Nordmann's is very similar to Common Greenshank, and easily confused unless you have a good, clear view. They aren't too difficult to separate when you have experience with both species, but they're very difficult for beginners, especially on distant views.
I agree with others that the leg and bill structure on this bird point to Common Greenshank.
Quite.
johnallcock
Well-known member
For someone to ask the question on this forum, I think it's better to assume they don't have the experience that allows them to quickly ID this difficult species pair. Even after watching shorebirds in East Asia for over 18 years, previously working on a reserve where both occur, I still struggle with some individuals at certain angles.
Your earlier reply that they don't look like each other doesn't help people who don't already have experience learn how to ID these species, and could make them feel embarrassed that they didn't know the difference or struggled with an ID you apparently found easy. Remember that not everyone will have your level of experience.
You missed my point - which is that, for an observer of any standard who has seen plenty of greenshank before but who has not seen Nordmann's, it is useful to know that it is actually (in my opinion) not a subtle difference that separates the two species: the leg length (clearly shorter) and bill shape (deep-based and evenly-tapering, like a recurved willet) give it a distinct look. Thus, if you see a bird that looks pretty much like a regular greenshank, it very likely is a regular greenshank; if you see a bird that looks a bit weird, look harder because it might be a Nordmann's greenshank.
Please don't misquote me. It's not good form.
I wouldn't say that your own 'help' was terribly helpful - given that you could, in very few extra words, have described actual leg and bill differences. If you look at every comment in this forum for ID help that goes beyond delivering a species name you will often look in vain - and I am less guilty of that failing than are many on here. I intended only to highlight one small aspect of this species-pair separation.
I have never been fortunate enough to see Nordmann's Greenshank. But I have been an English speaker for several decades, and so I would like to record my agreement with John Allcock that 'Nordmann's Greenshank doesn't look that much like a Greenshank' means the same as 'they don't look like each other'. And I would like also to support John's comments on the purpose of this forum in helping the weak as well as the strong. Without Bird Forum I would never have come to enjoy birding as much as I do - even though I still sometimes ask questions that are very simple for the experienced, and on the other end of the spectrum, also offer answers on topics I am not really qualified for and make a fool of myself. BF is just a mutual help forum, and that is its joy; sometimes, I think, we just have to let misunderstandings - others' and our own - just flow on by without making a fuss.
Owen Krout
Well-known member
OK, let's all just cool down a little. I (and probably many others) often are asking for an opinion because I am asking if it is a species that I am not familiar with. Hence I appreciate those with better skills than me offering a more expert opinion. I also appreciate it when someone else with better skills has taken the time and effort to communicate why I might be wrong.
I will make one comment as one trained in such things and experience teaching technical subjects to undergraduates, (Masters in Technical Education), it is important to not only communicate clearly but also to be careful not to appear to disparage anyone else's knowledge or lack thereof. Basically, we all should remember to be kind to one another here.
I also have found this forum to be of immense help in developing skills in a field where I have had no formal training. I'm an engineer, not a biologist. Thanks to those who came to my support and thanks to those who may have appeared to be dismissive in their answers. Personally, I didn't take any offense and appreciated the fact they took the time to help out an amateur.
Hopefully, we can not take the path of most of the outside world and we can all continue to be like a big family. We don't always agree, but we do always support each other.
I will make one comment as one trained in such things and experience teaching technical subjects to undergraduates, (Masters in Technical Education), it is important to not only communicate clearly but also to be careful not to appear to disparage anyone else's knowledge or lack thereof. Basically, we all should remember to be kind to one another here.
I also have found this forum to be of immense help in developing skills in a field where I have had no formal training. I'm an engineer, not a biologist. Thanks to those who came to my support and thanks to those who may have appeared to be dismissive in their answers. Personally, I didn't take any offense and appreciated the fact they took the time to help out an amateur.
Hopefully, we can not take the path of most of the outside world and we can all continue to be like a big family. We don't always agree, but we do always support each other.
johnallcock
Well-known member
I think I must have misunderstood your meaning in your first post, and my response was based on that misunderstanding. I apologise that I unintentionally misrepresented your actual meaning.
I agree with Owen that we should move on from this misunderstanding. I hope you will accept my apology by way of reconciliation.
