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Peregrine Falcon Harvest being Considered (1 Viewer)

and why not just take 1-2 chicks per nest instead? By taking immatures, you're removing birds that have already survived the chick and post-fledging stage (when many will naturally die anyway), so you're having a direct impact on recruits. By taking chicks, you not only by-pass the welfare issue (catching wild fullgrown birds) but are also going to be taking many birds that would otherwise die. You also know the exact origin of the birds, and mortality among hand-reared chicks will be lower than for stressed full-grown birds. So even on a practical level, it's staggeringly stupid.

This post opens a complex discussion
These birds would be captured in the U.S.
Most of the migratory falcons would probably be fledged in remote reaches of Canada and Greenland.
Many falconers prefer training birds that are post fledgling.These birds have acquired skill and experience that would be hard to duplicate in a captive situation.
Nestlings reared by humans often exhibit psycological confusion
 
Peregrine Harvest

and why not just take 1-2 chicks per nest instead? By taking immatures, you're removing birds that have already survived the chick and post-fledging stage (when many will naturally die anyway), so you're having a direct impact on recruits. By taking chicks, you not only by-pass the welfare issue (catching wild fullgrown birds) but are also going to be taking many birds that would otherwise die. You also know the exact origin of the birds, and mortality among hand-reared chicks will be lower than for stressed full-grown birds. So even on a practical level, it's staggeringly stupid.

Probably agree. But the attraction for falconers is the birds are passage and thus superior to eyasses for most quarry's Don't know why they don't just allow a number of eyasses to be taken as you stated if a take was to be permitted this would be the best option all-round
 
I see much surprising talk above (including from Super moderators), but it appears few have actually read the proposals. To not only assume, but to state in public that someone is ..."a bunch of crackpots"... without showing evidence speaks volumes.

Funnier still to see calls for removing members for their posts.
Ohh if I could silence all those with whom I do not agree...

Many years of research and hard scientific data have been used to develop 6 alternate proposals for Peregrine "take" (and one option is no take). In part, this has been forced on USFWS by the courts and the removal of the Peregrine from Endangered Status.

Some of the people that have written the proposals have spent their entire professional careers to ensure these birds will survive despite the challenges they face due to our activities.

I do not work for USFWS, but have friends/acquaintances that do, and have been asked to comment on the proposals.

Short version of proposals:

No proposal will allow more than 5% of the young from any of the following 3 populations to be taken (Northern Canada & Greenland, Northern Alaska & Western U.S.) in any year.

No proposal will allow more than 1% of the young from any of the following 2 populations to be taken (Eastern U.S. or Western Canada) in any year.

No proposal will allow more than 278 birds to be taken (from estimate of 6,428 migrants) in any year.

Number of young produced each year range from 7,143 to 15,127 (numbers do not match with migrants above, in part, because all populations do not migrate).

Average annual 1st year survival = 54%. Which means each year, between 3,285 - 6958 1st year birds will not live to see their 2nd year.

(Remember from the early days of Peregrine reintroduction, so many young falcons were dieing, that falconers were asked to fly them through their 1st Winter to increase survival).

The alternate proposals:

Alt #1: No change, no take allowed.
Alt #2: allow take South of 31 degrees North & East of 85 degrees West (is basically only Florida).
Alt #3: allow take S of 31 & E of 100 is all of gulf coast and all of Florida.
Alt #4: allow take West of 100 - Eliminates Florida and Gulf Coast.
Alt #5: allow take S of 31 N & E of 100 and all W of 100 is all of gulf coast and all of Florida and all of West.
Alt #6: allow take in all of lower 48 US States.

I don't know what the best option is, and am glad that I do not have to choose, but a choice will have to be made.
There will always be people that are not happy with either option.

I personally don't care about people not being happy, but do care about the continued survival of the Peregrine Falcon. I do not see anything in any of the options that currently threatens Peregrine survival (obviously baring another environmental catastrophe like DDT-DDE).

One positive thing that would come from allowing "take" would be continued monitoring, which is not required since Peregrines were removed from Endangered Status.

This is obviously only a shortly synopsis of the proposals (which can probably be found online for those inclined to look).

But for those that will take the time to look for themselves, you will see that much effort has gone into the proposals (our tax dollars hard at work).

If I did work for USFWS, I would be looking for an apology.
 
Alt #1: No change, no take allowed.
Alt #2: allow take South of 31 degrees North & East of 85 degrees West (is basically only Florida).
Alt #3: allow take S of 31 & E of 100 is all of gulf coast and all of Florida.
Alt #4: allow take West of 100 - Eliminates Florida and Gulf Coast.
Alt #5: allow take S of 31 N & E of 100 and all W of 100 is all of gulf coast and all of Florida and all of West.
Alt #6: allow take in all of lower 48 US States.

I don't know what the best option is

Well, number 1 seems to have a lot to commend it, with no downside that I can see........
 
If I did work for USFWS, I would be looking for an apology.

Er.....why???

However the statistics are dressed up, however they are presented or justified, falconers will still be taking [up to 300] birds out of the wild every year.

The truly joyous fact that the Peregrine is now off the Endangered Species list shouldn't be used as a permission slip for a harvest. It's equivalent to beating a bloke up, waiting til he's recovered and out of hospital, and beating him up again.
 
Taking any wild bird from it's natural state is not right. Falconers have no place on this forum. Just leave the wild birds alone. Why should you be aloud to harvest anything wild for your own personal entertainment. It is total bullsh*t.
 
Taking any wild bird from it's natural state is not right. Falconers have no place on this forum. Just leave the wild birds alone. Why should you be aloud to harvest anything wild for your own personal entertainment. It is total bullsh*t.

and did you know that they hunt wild birds with their falcons? In Britain, this includes larks and pipits.
 
I see much surprising talk above (including from Super moderators), but it appears few have actually read the proposals. To not only assume, but to state in public that someone is ..."a bunch of crackpots"... without showing evidence speaks volumes.

Funnier still to see calls for removing members for their posts.
Ohh if I could silence all those with whom I do not agree...

Many years of research and hard scientific data have been used to develop 6 alternate proposals for Peregrine "take" (and one option is no take). In part, this has been forced on USFWS by the courts and the removal of the Peregrine from Endangered Status.

Some of the people that have written the proposals have spent their entire professional careers to ensure these birds will survive despite the challenges they face due to our activities.

I do not work for USFWS, but have friends/acquaintances that do, and have been asked to comment on the proposals.

Short version of proposals:

No proposal will allow more than 5% of the young from any of the following 3 populations to be taken (Northern Canada & Greenland, Northern Alaska & Western U.S.) in any year.

No proposal will allow more than 1% of the young from any of the following 2 populations to be taken (Eastern U.S. or Western Canada) in any year.

No proposal will allow more than 278 birds to be taken (from estimate of 6,428 migrants) in any year.

Number of young produced each year range from 7,143 to 15,127 (numbers do not match with migrants above, in part, because all populations do not migrate).

Average annual 1st year survival = 54%. Which means each year, between 3,285 - 6958 1st year birds will not live to see their 2nd year.

(Remember from the early days of Peregrine reintroduction, so many young falcons were dieing, that falconers were asked to fly them through their 1st Winter to increase survival).

The alternate proposals:

Alt #1: No change, no take allowed.
Alt #2: allow take South of 31 degrees North & East of 85 degrees West (is basically only Florida).
Alt #3: allow take S of 31 & E of 100 is all of gulf coast and all of Florida.
Alt #4: allow take West of 100 - Eliminates Florida and Gulf Coast.
Alt #5: allow take S of 31 N & E of 100 and all W of 100 is all of gulf coast and all of Florida and all of West.
Alt #6: allow take in all of lower 48 US States.

I don't know what the best option is, and am glad that I do not have to choose, but a choice will have to be made.
There will always be people that are not happy with either option.

I personally don't care about people not being happy, but do care about the continued survival of the Peregrine Falcon. I do not see anything in any of the options that currently threatens Peregrine survival (obviously baring another environmental catastrophe like DDT-DDE).

One positive thing that would come from allowing "take" would be continued monitoring, which is not required since Peregrines were removed from Endangered Status.

This is obviously only a shortly synopsis of the proposals (which can probably be found online for those inclined to look).

But for those that will take the time to look for themselves, you will see that much effort has gone into the proposals (our tax dollars hard at work).

If I did work for USFWS, I would be looking for an apology.

It may have escaped your attention that this is a wild bird forum. I am opposed to the 'harvesting' of any wild bird poulation unless it can be proven that such harvesting is intended to work to the benefit of that particular species and/or for maintaining bio-diversity generally. I have no desire to see any species harvested for the sole benefit of falconry albeit that there might be an oblique benefit as a result of natural/non natural population crashes.

Forgive me if I am wrong...I am sure you will correct me if I am, but was it not the USFWS who effectively allowed the culling of seals in the atlantic (with pressure from your fisheries) which lead to a poplation crash of cod, since the seals which were blamed for reducing cod numbers were actually ensuring cod survival by naturally maintaining the kelp forrest which young cod need in order to grow? If I am wrong then please accept my apology. BTW I did look at some of the literature. My view remains the same.

Regards

Adrian

The views I have expressed are my own. I think I am entitled to a view.
 
MMM a nice tasty Peking Pipit. What is the purpose of hunting Larks and Pipits.

Fun. They like to watch their pet birds chasing and killing them. The Government issues licences each year for a take of larks, pipits, and also thrushes, gulls etc.

Have a look at this falconry forum thread, where they talk about what licences they've been given and what numbers. One wonders who actually monitors how many they catch:

http://falconryforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-7289.html

Pretty galling that taxpayers money is being paid to farmers to encourage skylarks and thrushes, while these people get licences to kill them just for sport. If you did it with a gun or trap, it would be illegal, but somehow a tame raptor is allowed.
 
I understand the knee-jerk negative reaction. The Peregrine Falcon is a bird near and dear to most birders' hearts, including mine. But I personally have not made up my mind one way or the other about the proposal (I would want to study it more). But I did want to make a few points that I have not seen made in this thread yet:

-- duck hunters are a big reason we have as much habitat preservation as we do in the United States. Politically, their support of the National Wildlife Refuge System and other initiatives has been very important. Like duck hunters, falconers are also likely people who would support conservation initiatives. So regardless of your opinion of the activities of those who have a less benign relationship with wildlife than birders, it is arguably counterproductive (and probably extreme) to demonize them. Politically, birders, hunters, falconers, and others who have an appreciation for wildlife can form a powerful coalition to support conservation and environmental initiatives.

-- the Fish and Wildlife Service is not a completely apolitical agency. Its head is appointed by the president. This President has a strong record of anti-environmental policy initiatives, so I would put little weight on the fact that "his" Fish and Wildlife Service supports this initiative. The Department of Interior, which is the larger agency of which the Fish and Wildlife Service is a part, has also been wracked recently by numerous scandals, which further undermines the credibility of recommendations emanating from its agencies.

-- Pretty much everyone, including birders, exploits birds in various ways. The most obvious is for food; we systematically slaughter chickens as a food source. I think people tend to forget about this because the act of killing the chicken is relegated to a few individuals and separated from the mass of people who eat the chickens. Of course, chickens have been domesticated, but I am not sure that automatically makes their exploitation more legitimate. And vegetarians would argue that their exploitation is not necessary to feed people; so it could be argued that we are exploiting them for our pleasure as well.

My two cents,
Jim
 
I understand the knee-jerk negative reaction. The Peregrine Falcon is a bird near and dear to most birders' hearts, including mine. But I personally have not made up my mind one way or the other about the proposal (I would want to study it more). But I did want to make a few points that I have not seen made in this thread yet:

-- duck hunters are a big reason we have as much habitat preservation as we do in the United States. Politically, their support of the National Wildlife Refuge System and other initiatives has been very important. Like duck hunters, falconers are also likely people who would support conservation initiatives. So regardless of your opinion of the activities of those who have a less benign relationship with wildlife than birders, it is arguably counterproductive (and probably extreme) to demonize them. Politically, birders, hunters, falconers, and others who have an appreciation for wildlife can form a powerful coalition to support conservation and environmental initiatives.

You have a point there Jim, and this is an interesting argument. In the UK, there's lots of coastal marshland which is invaluable for wildlife, but only because it is owned/leased and managed by wildfowling syndicates/organisations. They want good habitat for their ducks, so at the very least, resist the temptations of development or changing management practice. However, as unpalatable as it is to birders, at the very least the wildfowlers are contributing something to "conservation", even if it comes at a heavy price.

Now I'll admit this is where I stray into ignorance, but as far as I'm aware, falconers don't own any land, and don't directly benefit any habitat they may use when they're flying their birds. They are taking from the wildlife pool twice over - once when they harvest the wild falcons, and again if they allow their birds to catch and kill wild prey.

Whilst I appreciate your view that, in general, falconers, wildfowlers can, however uncomfortably, form political/lobbying bedfellows with birders or other conservationists, the cause of so much ire on this thread is the proposal to harvest WILD BIRDS. What's wrong with captive breeding?

-- the Fish and Wildlife Service is not a completely apolitical agency. Its head is appointed by the president. This President has a strong record of anti-environmental policy initiatives, so I would put little weight on the fact that "his" Fish and Wildlife Service supports this initiative. The Department of Interior, which is the larger agency of which the Fish and Wildlife Service is a part, has also been wracked recently by numerous scandals, which further undermines the credibility of recommendations emanating from its agencies.

I had read this somewhere before, but I wasn't 100% sure. The USFWS isn't an apolitical animal, like the RSPB over here. It's subject to the whims of whichever President is in charge at the time. How has the current USFWS administration reacted to the Alaskan oilfields proposal for example? (a little off-thread, I know - apologies).

-- Pretty much everyone, including birders, exploits birds in various ways. The most obvious is for food; we systematically slaughter chickens as a food source. I think people tend to forget about this because the act of killing the chicken is relegated to a few individuals and separated from the mass of people who eat the chickens. Of course, chickens have been domesticated, but I am not sure that automatically makes their exploitation more legitimate. And vegetarians would argue that their exploitation is not necessary to feed people; so it could be argued that we are exploiting them for our pleasure as well.

Again, a valid point, but now who's being divisive? I fail to see what this has to do with harvesting wild Peregrines. If you make the point that we exploit chickens, or ducks for eating, or even cows and pigs, then the accusation of hypocrisy could be levelled at virtually every conservation initiative. And THAT would be counterproductive!

I think it's good to see an objective post on this subject, but I think pretty much every birder posting on this thread (including me) will have the same angry, horrified opposition to this proposal.
 
It would appear that most people do not understand that the peregrine population in the US was brought back from the crash caused by DDT by a massive breeding and release programme run by the Peregrine Fund. Many of the leading people who set up the Peregrine Fund and committed themselves to its success (such as Tom Cade) were in fact falconers. And where did all the birds come from for the re-introduction programme come from - thats right, many were from captive falconry birds. And what techniques were used to release young peregrines, yep hacking, a technique that was developed centuries ago by falconers.

These people weren't all falconers and those that were weren't doing it with the objective of once again having a wild harvest. The uniting thread for all involved was a love of the peregrine falcon. Maybe birders should realise who their real enemies are instead of making them up through ignorance.
 
It would appear that most people do not understand that the peregrine population in the US was brought back from the crash caused by DDT by a massive breeding and release programme run by the Peregrine Fund. Many of the leading people who set up the Peregrine Fund and committed themselves to its success (such as Tom Cade) were in fact falconers. And where did all the birds come from for the re-introduction programme come from - thats right, many were from captive falconry birds. And what techniques were used to release young peregrines, yep hacking, a technique that was developed centuries ago by falconers.

These people weren't all falconers and those that were weren't doing it with the objective of once again having a wild harvest. The uniting thread for all involved was a love of the peregrine falcon. Maybe birders should realise who their real enemies are instead of making them up through ignorance.


Who are these 'real enemies' we are supposed to be opposed to then?

You didn't answer my question, which BTW was genuine - what's wrong with captive breeding?

You didn't address the central crux of birders' opposition - the harvest will be taking birds out the wild. If falconers did play a large part in the post-DDT recovery of the Peregrine, then that's very admirable and birders should indeed be grateful. But we exploit wildlife quite enough without operating some 'quid pro quo' system.
 
You didn't answer my question, which BTW was genuine - what's wrong with captive breeding?

Hi Bob. I am no falconry expert, but I took the passage below (from a post above) to mean that falconers prefer wild caught birds because they have better hunting skills.

Young birds known as eyasses can be used for falconry but in times gone past passage birds (wild 1st year birds) and haggards (wild adult birds) were also to be used, passage birds were often seen as the best alternative as they had already learn't how to hunt for themselves, unlike the novice eyass.

Jim
 
Hi Bob. I am no falconry expert, but I took the passage below (from a post above) to mean that falconers prefer wild caught birds because they have better hunting skills.



Jim

OK thanks Jim. At least that's a valid reason from a falconer's point of view, but not from mine!
 
Peregrine Harvest

It would appear that most people do not understand that the peregrine population in the US was brought back from the crash caused by DDT by a massive breeding and release programme run by the Peregrine Fund. Many of the leading people who set up the Peregrine Fund and committed themselves to its success (such as Tom Cade) were in fact falconers. And where did all the birds come from for the re-introduction programme come from - thats right, many were from captive falconry birds. And what techniques were used to release young peregrines, yep hacking, a technique that was developed centuries ago by falconers.

These people weren't all falconers and those that were weren't doing it with the objective of once again having a wild harvest. The uniting thread for all involved was a love of the peregrine falcon. Maybe birders should realise who their real enemies are instead of making them up through ignorance.

Hi Gyrkin as you quoted Falconers played a big role in recovery and re introduction of the Peregrine in the US I believe it was knot just the peregrine they bred and released but also the Prairie Falcon. Falconers have been involved in other Conservation work.Morlan Nelson used his Golden Eagles to show how electric power lines can kill large Raptors as a result of his wildlife documentary electric companies changed designs of the power polls. falconer Carl Jones if my memories right was the Falconer responsible for trapping the last remaining Mauritius Kestrels breeding them and re-releasing them in the wild.Falconers are actively involved in the conservation breeding and releasing of the New zealand Falcon.If you have a captive gene pool its a safety gap should you need it
 
It may have escaped your attention that this is a wild bird forum. I am opposed to the 'harvesting' of any wild bird poulation unless it can be proven that such harvesting is intended to work to the benefit of that particular species and/or for maintaining bio-diversity generally. I have no desire to see any species harvested for the sole benefit of falconry albeit that there might be an oblique benefit as a result of natural/non natural population crashes.

Forgive me if I am wrong...I am sure you will correct me if I am, but was it not the USFWS who effectively allowed the culling of seals in the atlantic (with pressure from your fisheries) which lead to a poplation crash of cod, since the seals which were blamed for reducing cod numbers were actually ensuring cod survival by naturally maintaining the kelp forrest which young cod need in order to grow? If I am wrong then please accept my apology. BTW I did look at some of the literature. My view remains the same.

Regards

Adrian

The views I have expressed are my own. I think I am entitled to a view.

I have always assumed this is a wild bird forum and this thread deals with wild birds.

I respect everyone's right to express their own views.

I object to name calling.

I object to the call to revoke another's membership because of a differing view.

No apology is owed to me as I have no connection to USFWS.

Unfortunately, I am not educated enough on the subject to address concerns about seal harvest and population crash of cod.
I visit this site because I have an interest in and some knowledge of wild birds (especially raptors).

I too advocate for policies that maintain biodiversity (especially my beloved raptors).

Will any of the proposed Peregrine "take" options have a "...benefit of that particular species and/or for maintaining bio-diversity generally..."? Probably not (IMHO).

Will any of the proposed Peregrine "take" options have a negative effect on Peregrine populations or bio-diversity? Not likely (IMHO).

It appears that USFWS would have preferred to keep Peregrines under some kind of protected status, but when they could not defend that position in a court of law, then they were forced to remove Peregrines from protected status.

It is also my understanding that USFWS would have preferred to have no "take" of Peregrines, but this position also could not be defended in court.

(Yes... much of wildlife management policy in the U.S. is forced by the courts - and I bet if one were to look, the courts will be involved in the above mentioned seal harvest and crash of cod, though USFWS will get the credit (or blame)).
 
(Yes... much of wildlife management policy in the U.S. is forced by the courts - and I bet if one were to look, the courts will be involved in the above mentioned seal harvest and crash of cod, though USFWS will get the credit (or blame)).

I would disagree with that statement. 99% of wildlife management policy is governed by statutes enacted by Congress and regulations promulgated by administrative agencies. A court's role in this area of law is thus generally limited to doing its best to interpret and apply statutes and regulations. You could blame Congress for enacting weak or wishy-washy laws, but I think blaming the courts is a reach.

Jim
 
One niggling little point: talk of falconers improving the chances of the survival of a species, due to having a more diverse gene pool in captivity, would appear to be contradicted by the breeding of artificial hybrid combinations, which, if and when they escape (as they often do) could possibly breed with a parent species and, if the young produced fledged and were fertile, could lead to the very integrity of a species being threatened, at least at a local level...
Also, why do people need to take wild birds in this day and age? You'd think that there were more than enough Peregrines in captivity already to breed from.
Here in Ireland, falconers are allowed, under licence, to take young Peregrines from the nest under the supervision of a wildlife ranger. Though the numbers taken are limited, it still strikes me as a little unnecessary...
Regards,
Harry
 
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