Review: ZEN Prime HD (3 Viewers)

[ZEN-RAY]

I am actually quite relieved after reading all the great feedbacks from our customers here since most of them can be addressed through more stringent final Q/C. We also implemented few improvements through our manufacturing process to sharply reduce the risk of our final Q/C escape.

I don't wear glasses, which put me in the risk population of seeing blackout in theory. But I am having a hard time to produce a blackout unless I push my eyes into the ocular eyecups. Just like few other users mentioned, a slight adjustment how you hold the binoculars will make a big difference. Once you are used to it, you can really enjoy the view.

Before I see the beta version, I was worried how the new binoculars will turn out since many things (including diopter mechanism) have been reinvented since alpha version. I was pleasantly surprised the binoculars delivers all the optical goodness that I have been hoping for this model. Then, before final product release, I was really concerned that customers may find some kind of issue that we ourselves don't even understand. That's why I am so relieved that it has never been the case. Maybe I am just overly paranoid. Now my biggest concern is how to keep up with the orders. By the rate of incoming orders, we soon will max out the available parts for the month of July.

Charles

 

[newfie ghost]

There is essentially NO VISIBLE PINCUSHION at the edges of the image. If I didn't make that clear enough in the review, maybe that will do it . I have yet to see any appreciable rolling ball effect. There was a hint of some right off, but I can't see it now, it was not to be seen the second time I looked for it. Rolling ball is pretty much dependent on naturally occurring distortion in viewer's eyes, so I can't say how others might be affected. There is 7% pincushion in the 8x, less than that in the 10x.

Let's get the right frame of reference here. For the umpteenth time the oculars on the Prime are large. You will have facial contact with those large circumference eye cups where people are not used to having contact. It will initially feel very different while you have it up to your eyes. IPD settings and eye placement will be different than what you are used to. This will cause blackouts until you get used to using the binocular. Another thing to consider is that if you are used to having the eye cups held tightly to your face, you will have to learn not to hold them quite so close in. That is not a fault...that is a design characteristic. Large, wide, flat fields of view, and sharp edges will necessitate some changes in ocular design, but for now it is what it is. Look at almost every posting about the seemingly quite rapid adjustment to the blackout..."hey this is not as bad as I thought". The only really disturbing thing is the internal debris found by CCD3. That is something that can be corrected in assembly QC.

Some sort of external auxillary eye cup extension and larger rainguards to fit should be pretty easy to do. I'd bet that if the eye cup extension is a real issue it won't take Charles too long to address the issue.

Small bit of rolling ball is good as you get a nice flat image. I assume they are pretty flat?

Zen ray service sounds great though, they are willing to fix problems fast and they post here.

 

[Steve C]

Small bit of rolling ball is good as you get a nice flat image. I assume they are pretty flat?

Zen ray service sounds great though, they are willing to fix problems fast and they post here.

Yes...they are pretty flat. Very nice image. Has just about anything you could want in an image.

 

[BruceH]

..............
Some sort of external auxillary eye cup extension and larger rainguards to fit should be pretty easy to do. I'd bet that if the eye cup extension is a real issue it won't take Charles too long to address the issue.

Charles posted a comment earlier in this thread responding to a comment by Steve mentioning a lack of eye relief in the 10X42 beta for those wearing eye glasses.

Charles said: "For those 10x units, its useable eye relief is about the same as 10x43 ZEN ED2. But we already have work in progress so the final release next month will have extra 2-3mm ER.

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2455856&postcount=37

He also followed up in a question from me saying that was the only change planned between the 10X42 beta and production unit.

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2455893&postcount=39

So the thought occurred to me that if the eye relief of the 10X42 was extended, then was the corresponding length of the eye cup also extended? If not, then that may explain why some are thinking the eye cups are just a little to short.

Maybe Charles can comment on what was done or Steve can compare once his production 10X arrives.

 

[BruceH]

Bruce,

One solution I can think of is the Field Optics Research's winged eyecups. I will give them a call tomorrow and a pair out for you to try.

Charles

Charles -- Thanks for the followup. (FYI - I sent you a PM on Saturday.)

I believe this is what Charles is referring to .......

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2406372&postcount=27

 

[Alexis Powell]

...IPD settings and eye placement will be different than what you are used to. This will cause blackouts until you get used to using the binocular...

Users should be used to centering their eyes on the oculars and positioning their pupils according to distance that the ocular projects the image. The large oculars may make this setting look or feel different, but it is the same setting as used with any bin.

...Another thing to consider is that if you are used to having the eye cups held tightly to your face, you will have to learn not to hold them quite so close in. That is not a fault...that is a design characteristic...

Seems like a fault to me because it is a matter of eyecup design. All bins ought to have eyecups that can be extended to suit a range of eye socket shapes and user preferences.

These nitpicks aside, I agree that some bins take some getting used to. For me, the reason why binoculars are so interesting is that they have such different personalities. Sometimes, once the user's brain etc adjustment is made, the initial "problems" go away entirely. However, initial impressions should not be entirely discounted as they are sometimes the best indicators of the aspects of a model that will be recurring irritations, and that account for why some bins are not as relaxing to use as others that do not put the same demands on the brain to accomodate.

--AP

 

[Steve C]

Users should be used to centering their eyes on the oculars and positioning their pupils according to distance that the ocular projects the image. The large oculars may make this setting look or feel different, but it is the same setting as used with any bin.


Seems like a fault to me because it is a matter of eyecup design. All bins ought to have eyecups that can be extended to suit a range of eye socket shapes and user preferences.

These nitpicks aside, I agree that some bins take some getting used to. For me, the reason why binoculars are so interesting is that they have such different personalities. Sometimes, once the user's brain etc adjustment is made, the initial "problems" go away entirely. However, initial impressions should not be entirely discounted as they are sometimes the best indicators of the aspects of a model that will be recurring irritations, and that account for why some bins are not as relaxing to use as others that do not put the same demands on the brain to accomodate.

--AP

Anybody used to using the MOLCET approach, to any degree at all, and who centers the large ocular on their eye brow in the same way they are used to, will not be looking through the center of the lens as they are used to. I think this is at least a part of the blackout issue.

I probably should have said that the way IPD settings are done may need to be done differently. For me as an example, it seemed easier with the Prime to widen the IPD out and then bring it closed until I hit my spot. I'd fly right past it if I had it narrow and widened it out. That usually makes no difference to me. Anything a user typically does by the feel of the eye cup placement against whatever facial features will perhaps need to be done differently with these larger oculars. I think this is another part of the blackout issue. This I do not thionk is a good binocular to share with somebody who has a different IPD than you do.

I would not particularly argue the eye cup fault. It seems easy enough to redesign the eye cup with another click upwards. That would work...probably better as a terminal fix as opposed to an aftermarket fix with the earlier suggestion of the auxillary eye cup.

These certainly do have a unique personality and that is a good way to put it.

 

[NDhunter]

Bruce,

One solution I can think of is the Field Optics Research's winged eyecups. I will give them a call tomorrow and a pair out for you to try.

Charles

Charles:

The Field Optics winged eyecups will not help with the need for increased
eyerelief. They fit flush, and are a nice aid but not the answer you may
be looking for. They do help very well with side lighting and I recommend
them. But winged eyecups will only work for users without glasses.

A while back I provided Steve C. a set of molded winged cups that are on
the Nikon EDG, and it helped him on another Zenray model, ED 3 ?
These increase the eyerelief, and he found they worked well.

Check it out.

Jerry

 

[ZEN-RAY]

Charles posted a comment earlier in this thread responding to a comment by Steve mentioning a lack of eye relief in the 10X42 beta for those wearing eye glasses.

Charles said: "For those 10x units, its useable eye relief is about the same as 10x43 ZEN ED2. But we already have work in progress so the final release next month will have extra 2-3mm ER.

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2455856&postcount=37

He also followed up in a question from me saying that was the only change planned between the 10X42 beta and production unit.

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2455893&postcount=39

So the thought occurred to me that if the eye relief of the 10X42 was extended, then was the corresponding length of the eye cup also extended? If not, then that may explain why some are thinking the eye cups are just a little to short.

Maybe Charles can comment on what was done or Steve can compare once his production 10X arrives.

Bruce,

The original beta design is slightly short on ER in both full collapsed and fully extended mode. Our own testing echoes what Steve has found, it was marginal for viewing the full FOV. The final design is much better. Today, I have been trying to recreate the blackout issue by playing with ER without much success. When the eyecups were fully extended, I got a very relaxed view through both barrels. Then I placed the eyecups at the middle position, I still cannot see any blackout with my normal posture of resting upper rim of the eyecups on the my eyebrows. That means the ER is actually quite forgiving and we should not have much excessive ER when eyecups are fully extended.

What I did find is that IPD setting is more critical. If I folded the binoculars to minimum IPD (about 2-3mm smaller than my normal setting), I got blackout immediately. I think the hinge stiffness on your pair is preventing you from freely adjusting the IPD to your optimal setting (again, my apology), which is causing most of the issues. I am hopeful that new replacement will address this issue.

Back to the ER question, although I don't believe it's an issue. I would still like to try Jerry and Steve's idea, in addition to the FOR's eyecups. Maybe I can recruit you to test that mod?

Charles

 

[ZEN-RAY]

Charles:

The Field Optics winged eyecups will not help with the need for increased
eyerelief. They fit flush, and are a nice aid but not the answer you may
be looking for. They do help very well with side lighting and I recommend
them. But winged eyecups will only work for users without glasses.

A while back I provided Steve C. a set of molded winged cups that are on
the Nikon EDG, and it helped him on another Zenray model, ED 3 ?
These increase the eyerelief, and he found they worked well.

Check it out.

Jerry

Jerry,

Thanks a lot for the tip. I will contact Steve and definitely try that one out.

Charles

 

[Alexis Powell]

Anybody used to using the MOLCET approach, to any degree at all, and who centers the large ocular on their eye brow in the same way they are used to, will not be looking through the center of the lens as they are used to. I think this is at least a part of the blackout issue...

As I understand MOLCET, it just means that one supports the bin against one's face by pressing the eyecup against the brow instead of gouging the eyecups into one's eye sockets. The goal should still be to hold the bin so as to align the eyes with the centers of the oculars.

An aside:
Bracing against the brow is the way that I've always used bins because putting pressure anywhere around the eye itself pushes against my eye, indirectly, and ever so briefly and subtly knocks my stereo vision out of alignment, thereby degrading the view. This is why I think the small eyecups of compacts are a bad design--they don't allow brow bracing, except via the index finger, which undermines using a normal grip. Actually, since I always wear glasses these days, I brace all bins (even compacts) against my brow via my glasses, but I guess this only works for folks like me who wear large diameter (e.g. aviator style) glasses.

...Anything a user typically does by the feel of the eye cup placement against whatever facial features will perhaps need to be done differently with these larger oculars. I think this is another part of the blackout issue. This I do not thionk is a good binocular to share with somebody who has a different IPD than you do...

As a glasses wearer, I had no idea anyone set their IPD based on eyecup feel. Doing so doesn't seem a good idea to me with any bin because eyecup diameters vary widely among models, and even if they didn't, the proper setting depends on the viewing distance. I think the lesson here is that IPD should always be set based upon the view (i.e. adjust to have no vignetting), nothing else.

--AP

 

[WilsonsWarbler]

I got my prime's and there's a lot to like about them. However, I seem to be noticing a pretty shallow depth of field where I have to adjust the focus a lot. I don't have a lot to compare to except the Euro HD, which are better in this regard.

I'll try to have some specific examples tomorrow. But I've noticed this when looking at flowers 20 and 25-30 feet away. I can't keep them all in focus it seems.

Just wondering what everyone thinks in case there may be anything amiss with mine.

 

[Nixterdemus]

WW, 8X or 10X?

My 'old' 10X40 ABK Conquest requires constant focusing if I'm only looking at the feeder to the yard or within the yard. yet I've a couple of 6x porros that fairly well cruise on focus auto pilot within a wide range per setting.

I'm interested in ER betwixt the 8-10 power of non-bespectacled voyeurs.

 

[mtman]

Mine do the same thing, however, I like do like it that way. I noticed that that was a difference yesterday when I was in looking at the Vortex viper, talon, and a pair of Swaros(not sure which ones but the retail was $2400). The swaros were similar to the primes in that regard. I noticed I needed to focus the swaros constantly compared to the vortexes.

On a side note, I like the focus wheel on the primes alot better than those swaros I looked at. The feel of it, I mean. The prime feels like it "grips" your finger better.

I would like to also say that in a previous post, I said that I was getting blackouts when I looked to the side, but that they lessoned as I played with them some. After thinking about it, I should say that I am a novice when it comes to binos and after looking through the Vortexes and the Swaros, I noticed the same effect on all of them when I tried to duplicate it. This is not an effect that I would've even looked for had I not read the first non-beta reveiw, like I said novice. So take that for what its worth. I don't know what that means that every pair does something similar to me. All four pairs had no blackouts when I looked straight forward, but did when I looked to the edge of them.

 

[Stet]

Mine do the same thing, however, I like do like it that way. I noticed that that was a difference yesterday when I was in looking at the Vortex viper, talon, and a pair of Swaros(not sure which ones but the retail was $2400). The swaros were similar to the primes in that regard. I noticed I needed to focus the swaros constantly compared to the vortexes.

On a side note, I like the focus wheel on the primes alot better than those swaros I looked at. The feel of it, I mean. The prime feels like it "grips" your finger better.

I would like to also say that in a previous post, I said that I was getting blackouts when I looked to the side, but that they lessoned as I played with them some. After thinking about it, I should say that I am a novice when it comes to binos and after looking through the Vortexes and the Swaros, I noticed the same effect on all of them when I tried to duplicate it. This is not an effect that I would've even looked for had I not read the first non-beta reveiw, like I said novice. So take that for what its worth. I don't know what that means that every pair does something similar to me. All four pairs had no blackouts when I looked straight forward, but did when I looked to the edge of them.

I have found that there is a period of acclimation with these bins. I also can now look at the edges without any blackouts. Also I can say after using them for the last two days I did not notice any rolling ball that I could see before if I looked for it. So get them out birding and use them as much as you can. Remember you have a gracious 30 day money back guarantee.

 

[stereotruckdriver]

Things are starting to sound alot better! I'm hoping the contest binoculars will be shipped soon!? I'm getting anxious to give these a go, they sound like fine glass! Bryce...

 

[WilsonsWarbler]

WW, 8X or 10X?

My 'old' 10X40 ABK Conquest requires constant focusing if I'm only looking at the feeder to the yard or within the yard. yet I've a couple of 6x porros that fairly well cruise on focus auto pilot within a wide range per setting.

I'm interested in ER betwixt the 8-10 power of non-bespectacled voyeurs.

I knew I forgot to post something... They are the 10x.

I do use them with glasses, which is good because the oculars are a little large.

 

[FrankD]

I have now tried the prototype 8x42s and the production run 10x42s. I can confirm that the 10xs have notably less usable eye relief than the 8s. I actually could not quite see the full field of view with the 10s if I set the IPD correctly for my eyes. If I widened it then I came very close to the full field of view but the image became dimmer because my eyes were no longer centered in the exit pupils.

Both Stet and I agreed that this could be easily resolved, at least in my situation, by tapering the eyecups so I could get the IPD set correctly and still get the eyecups past my widely bridged snoz.

 

[jeepcoma]

I agree with the above comments, there is definitely a bit of a learning curve (which seems reasonable to expect, though as a bino newb I was not anticipating that) to these bins, but the results seem to be well worth it. I was able to take them down to a local store and compare side-by-side with some others from price ranging $200-500 range (and even some cheap travel ones), and the quality blew away everything else, hands down. Compared to the others, the Prime did not have the worst blackout performance, but there were a few that were clearly better (though, given the optics, was not a winning tradeoff). As a photographer, I'm simply used to being able to look around the entire viewport behind an SLR and not have to worry about perfect eye placement or blackouts or anything like that, but I seem to be getting used to it now and it's not as big a deal as perhaps my earlier posts seem to indicate. I've also made some unconscious adjustments too and am having much less trouble with it, though I still do find it annoying from time to time and wish it wasn't there at all. In a pinch, you can also move the bins around like a tilt/shift lens to give you that last bit of ability to look to the edge. So, I think there's room for improvement here but it's not nearly as intrusive as I first found it to be, and think it's probably something I'll learn to live with.

Charles is sending me a replacement due to a few QC concerns I had with my model, and also suggested I try the 10x as well so I'll be able to do a side-by-side and see which fits best. Top notch customer service as expected, if you're on the fence about whether to try these, I say go for it because you really don't have much to lose if you don't like them. I'm curious how the 10x will fit me, as apparently they have even more trouble with FOV and IPD than the 8x, which is still a compromise for me (I can get the full FOV and horrible blackouts if I look off center, or I can get rid of the blackouts at the expense of a loss of FOV).

 

[idaho john]

and...

Guys: thanks for giving Charles a break here. No - I do not work for him and in fact have never met him nor own a Zen-Ray product. My experience is limited to working on a production team earlier in life and following a product through from design to retail sales and am aware of some of the pitfalls that go with the process...including having the QC person having a bad day. With the result that the rest of us had a bad day along with them.

I hope to join the Prime fraternity (fellowship?) one of these days.

John