• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Where premium quality meets exceptional value. ZEISS Conquest HDX.

roof binos - diopter adjust schemes- one better/ more durable than the other? (1 Viewer)

pat mitchel

Well-known member
I'm not that familiar with roof prism binos, having only had 4 in my hands over the past 20 years or so (porro fan!). The latest bino purchased is a bushnell legent ultra HD (8x42) that has a click out diopter adjust ring turn to adjust the diopter, then push back down to lock the diopter. Seems a bit awkward to use in addition to the problem that the adjust does not allow enough of a minute adjust and still lock down. As if the adjustment doesn't have a fine enough gearing to allow a finer movement then lock . Since I haven't gotten to a bino that has the diopter adjust on the center focus wheel, does that function in a similar fashion? I can always leave the adjust ring "up" unlocked to facilitate an adjustment (stiff enough for it to stay in position without a lock down). But am interested in why they have the various schemes to change and set the adjustment. Are they all equally robust in the long run (yrs down the road)? Thanks in advance, Pat
 
I have very little experience here with the various diopter adjusters, but now having two Leicas with the central pull-up style, absolutely feel it's unlikely to ever be bettered. The adjuster on my older Leitz, while very easy to use, still tended to be moved from time to time, while the newer one just simply can't, unless unlocked.
 
I'm not that familiar with roof prism binos, having only had 4 in my hands over the past 20 years or so (porro fan!). The latest bino purchased is a bushnell legent ultra HD (8x42) that has a click out diopter adjust ring turn to adjust the diopter, then push back down to lock the diopter. Seems a bit awkward to use in addition to the problem that the adjust does not allow enough of a minute adjust and still lock down. As if the adjustment doesn't have a fine enough gearing to allow a finer movement then lock . Since I haven't gotten to a bino that has the diopter adjust on the center focus wheel, does that function in a similar fashion? I can always leave the adjust ring "up" unlocked to facilitate an adjustment (stiff enough for it to stay in position without a lock down). But am interested in why they have the various schemes to change and set the adjustment. Are they all equally robust in the long run (yrs down the road)? Thanks in advance, Pat
If I understood you correctly and you are leaving the dioptre adjustment up, then you would only be altering the focus on the right barrel. The focus setting for the left barrel would remain at its previous setting.
Here is a post in which I attempted to explain what's goin on: Wandering diopter - what is happening inside / technical explanation?

John
 
I'm not that familiar with roof prism binos, having only had 4 in my hands over the past 20 years or so (porro fan!). The latest bino purchased is a bushnell legent ultra HD (8x42) that has a click out diopter adjust ring turn to adjust the diopter, then push back down to lock the diopter. Seems a bit awkward to use in addition to the problem that the adjust does not allow enough of a minute adjust and still lock down. As if the adjustment doesn't have a fine enough gearing to allow a finer movement then lock . Since I haven't gotten to a bino that has the diopter adjust on the center focus wheel, does that function in a similar fashion? I can always leave the adjust ring "up" unlocked to facilitate an adjustment (stiff enough for it to stay in position without a lock down). But am interested in why they have the various schemes to change and set the adjustment. Are they all equally robust in the long run (yrs down the road)? Thanks in advance, Pat
Hi, Pat, et. al.

Individual focus binoculars NEED a diopter adjustment for each eye; CF binoculars do not. When you turn the center wheel to focus the LEFT (or right in some cases) eye, you are adjusting the dioptric setting for THAT telescope. There is only ONE diopter adjustment need of center-focus binoculars. It’s there to address the DIFFERENCE between the power the observer’s eye and only 2-3% of them have the same in each eye. Once that difference has been established ACCURATELY, the observer need only adjust the center focus—which needs no diopter scale—for focusing at various distances.

DIOPTRIC ACCOMMODATION

(The importance of Learning to Stare)


Perhaps the most important aspect of observing is found in dioptric accommodation, which is also a component of observing that can be controlled by the observer if they understand the most efficient focusing procedures. But what is there to know about simply focusing a binocular? Quite a bit, actually.

We have all seen bird watchers, amateur astronomers, or others repeatedly adjust the focus on their binocular when we know their target is not changing its proximity. Why, then, should an adjustment be necessary? The problem lies with a dioptric accommodation—a physiological correcting of a disparity of focus along the Z axis and the observer’s understanding of focusing procedures—novice or postdoc.

Your mother probably taught you, “It’s not nice to stare.” However, for the most pleasing, fiddle-free observing experience you might want to forget that advice. There are two parts to focusing a binocular. The first concerns the binocular’s focus mechanism—the actuation of the focus knob, diopter ring, or flip lever and it is the one seen almost exclusively by the observer. Over time, the second part can be even more important. It works through the involuntary
stretching or compressing of the eyelens by the eye’s ciliary muscles. Our impatient brains want to see things in focus quickly. This is a safety mechanism for mankind that has been with us since prehistory. But if given the chance, it will use those muscles to the detriment of the viewing experience.

Let us suppose you want to see a target at a certain distance and start turning the focus knob to achieve the best image. The target may become sharply focused for you at -3 diopters, although your, at rest, dioptric setting should be -1. Yes, the image is focused. But only because your brain was rushing ahead of your need and only achieved that focus at a strained setting. Then, as fatigue sets in, or your physiological focus starts to wander, you feel the need to start fiddling with the focus mechanism. Even so, without considering the importance of STARING, you will, more than likely, repeat the mistake and find that the problem remains.

Learning to stare can preclude the eye’s involuntary input and limits focusing to that achieved
through the binocular’s focus mechanism, leaving the observer in control of the whole focusing operation, as opposed to having the two aspects of focusing fight each other while you try to attain a precise and comfortable focus for an object at a given distance. Not understanding the critical importance of learning to stare, observers have devised a few routines to circumvent the real problem.

Two of the most common involve trying to trick the brain. * Both can be beneficial to the operation and, although tantamount to placing a Band-Aid ®on a bullet hole, both have been endorsed in a number of articles. The first has the observer place a hand over one objective lens while focusing the other telescope. Then, the procedure is reversed for the other side. For some, even that is not good enough. In the second method, the observer must place the cap on one objective and reverse the process when a good focus appears to have been achieved. Some observers promote one or both of these methods and some satisfaction may be realized. Yet, how many times might a moving target disappear from sight while using the first method or fishing around in your pocket for a lens cap to perform the second? The person who has learned to stare need not bother with either of these stop-gap measures.

RECOGNIZING FOR YOURSELF

Patiently focus your binocular as precisely as possible on a target a mile or more away. Observe your dioptric setting for that target. This is your natural, at rest, dioptric setting for a target at that distance.

Now, defocus the setting by between 2 and 3 diopters. Then, when placing the binocular to your eyes, you may not initially see a disturbing difference in the focus. † Over time, however, you may note the image is not as crisp as when you started the experiment. Finally, as you continue to adjust the focus to attain a sharp image, you may see that the dioptric setting has returned to the one you had at the outset.

By learning to stare and bringing the image to its best—at rest—focus, you are allowing the
mechanism to do its job and much of the unnecessary, and time wasting, attempts at focusing can be avoided.
 
Did the diopter wander or did the eye muscles; see post #4.
Bill,

The link I posted was in reply to a question about wandering dioptre setting, a not uncommon problem on some roof prism binoculars with internal focussing. The mechanics of the focussing mechanism should provide absolutely synchronous movement of the focussing lenses in both barrels and some Swarovski binoculars in particular have unequal focussing torque clockwise/anticlockwise because the mechanism is spring-loaded to assure synchronicity.

This synchronicity is a requirement of all internally focussing binoculars and any asynchrous movement will result in a perceived change of dioptre setting.
In those roof prism binoculars with an extendable right eyepiece dioptre setting the focussing lenses should be in identical positions regardless of the focus setting. In those with a central dioptre adjustment (e.g. pull-out focussing knob to decouple the left focussing lens, as on Zeiss Victorys or many Swarovskis) a +ve or -ve setting would result in a longitudinal displacement of the focusing lenses with respect to one another, but this displacement should remain constant.

As I explained in the linked post, the distance of the object chosen to set the dioptre is absolutely immaterial. With a change of focus one is merely placing the image formed by the objectives left and right in the same positions relative to the focal planes of the eyepieces.

Regards,
John
 
Bill,

The link I posted was in reply to a question about wandering dioptre setting, a not uncommon problem on some roof prism binoculars with internal focussing. The mechanics of the focussing mechanism should provide absolutely synchronous movement of the focussing lenses in both barrels and some Swarovski binoculars in particular have unequal focussing torque clockwise/anticlockwise because the mechanism is spring-loaded to assure synchronicity.

This synchronicity is a requirement of all internally focussing binoculars and any asynchrous movement will result in a perceived change of dioptre setting.
In those roof prism binoculars with an extendable right eyepiece dioptre setting the focussing lenses should be in identical positions regardless of the focus setting. In those with a central dioptre adjustment (e.g. pull-out focussing knob to decouple the left focussing lens, as on Zeiss Victorys or many Swarovskis) a +ve or -ve setting would result in a longitudinal displacement of the focusing lenses with respect to one another, but this displacement should remain constant.

As I explained in the linked post, the distance of the object chosen to set the dioptre is absolutely immaterial. With a change of focus one is merely placing the image formed by the objectives left and right in the same positions relative to the focal planes of the eyepieces.

Regards,
John
A very important REALITY for roof users. Some of my comments come from not being privy to what the observer knows about optics. I fear it must always be so. Collimation error has nothing to do with focus, Chromatic Aberration has little to do with the objective's non-existent "tint," "Distortion" is a bonafide technical term, etc.
 
Hi, Pat, et. al.

RECOGNIZING FOR YOURSELF

Patiently focus your binocular as precisely as possible on a target a mile or more away. Observe your dioptric setting for that target. This is your natural, at rest, dioptric setting for a target at that distance.

Now, defocus the setting by between 2 and 3 diopters. Then, when placing the binocular to your eyes, you may not initially see a disturbing difference in the focus. † Over time, however, you may note the image is not as crisp as when you started the experiment. Finally, as you continue to adjust the focus to attain a sharp image, you may see that the dioptric setting has returned to the one you had at the outset.

By learning to stare and bringing the image to its best—at rest—focus, you are allowing the
mechanism to do its job and much of the unnecessary, and time wasting, attempts at focusing can be avoided.
Bill, a little help please.
1. "Patiently focus your binocular as precisely as possible on a target a mile or more away." This just working with the barrel that the diopter adjuster controls, not both eyes? Leave lockout mechanism unlocked? What if the vision in the one eye that aligns with the diopter adjustment is crap, (even with best possible eyeglass adjustment)?

2. "Now, defocus the setting by between 2 and 3 diopters. Then, when placing the binocular to your eyes, you may not initially see a disturbing difference in the focus. † Over time, however, you may note the image is not as crisp as when you started the experiment. Finally, as you continue to adjust the focus to attain a sharp image, you may see that the dioptric setting has returned to the one you had at the outset." Where's the staring part? Seems like looking at that mile away object only through the barrel with available diopter adjustment, (if I have that right), defocusing and refocusing, the mechanism is competing with my eye brain attempt to focus?

Thanks
G'Tom
 
Bill, a little help please.
1. "Patiently focus your binocular as precisely as possible on a target a mile or more away." This just working with the barrel that the diopter adjuster controls, not both eyes? Leave lockout mechanism unlocked? What if the vision in the one eye that aligns with the diopter adjustment is crap, (even with best possible eyeglass adjustment)?

2. "Now, defocus the setting by between 2 and 3 diopters. Then, when placing the binocular to your eyes, you may not initially see a disturbing difference in the focus. † Over time, however, you may note the image is not as crisp as when you started the experiment. Finally, as you continue to adjust the focus to attain a sharp image, you may see that the dioptric setting has returned to the one you had at the outset." Where's the staring part? Seems like looking at that mile away object only through the barrel with available diopter adjustment, (if I have that right), defocusing and refocusing, the mechanism is competing with my eye brain attempt to focus?

Thanks
G'Tom
It just shows you what can happen if you DON'T stare! Don't over think it. Just read/do it slowly and pay attention to what's happening ... and why.
 
It just shows you what can happen if you DON'T stare! Don't over think it. Just read/do it slowly and pay attention to what's happening ... and why.
I did. Ended up resetting diopter adjustment on 2 different binos. Curiously both ended up with almost same setting on diopter scale. Pretty cool thanks
 
I did. Ended up resetting diopter adjustment on 2 different binos. Curiously both ended up with almost same setting on diopter scale. Pretty cool thanks
Yee haa! That's Pecos for "See, I told ya so." Don't tell anybody, though. It'll make my detractors snot slinging mad. By the way, hat shouldn't be "curious(ly)", if you checked a dozen binos, the results should be the same.
 
Last edited:
Warning! This thread is more than 3 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top