• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Southern Migrant Hawker (2 Viewers)

There are always going to be some idiot photographers, be it birds, insects, plants or some other branch of natural history, but we're straying. The point of this particular thread is that it appears that a private collector has turned up and taken, as far as we know, a significant proportion of the population of what appears to be the first proper attempt at colonisation by a very rare species of Dragonfly to the UK. There have been, what, 20 records ever? Six prior to this year and the rest either at Hadleigh now, with a couple also seen in Kent? Against the wishes of all those present enoying the spectacle, he took one, killed it, and waltzed off, no doubt giddy with pleasure. If there were 10,000 of these, I wouldn't have so much a problem with it (though even if there were he still should have refrained from doing it had everyone objected). But there aren't, there are about 20 (so far as we know). And now one of them is under glass in some bloke's back room with a pin through it, essentially a trophy. Unnecessary, selfish, and antiquated behaviour that needs stamping out. In the same way that egging was once seen as a good honest hobby for schoolboys, but is now viewed as immoral by almost everyone, so the insect hunters need to leave the victorian era behind and get with the flipping program. Someone posted a photo I am glad to see. Of the two species in that photo, one of them definitely belongs in a museum, and it isn't the Hawker.
Jonathan
 
Last edited:
I have also 'dug out' a copy of the previous BDS code off practice (2004-2009) - ie. a review of the code was planned to take place in late 2008/early 2009 - and IMO this previous version is misrepresented by the selected passages that you have quoted (see below). This earlier version does state that "voucher specimens of species new to the respective countries or regions may often be required", but like the revised version it also states that "Dragonflies should only be killed when a justifiable and useful purpose is served" and suggests that field notes and/or photographs may suffice instead of voucher specimens.

...

As for the sections that you have quoted, it is firstly important to make it clear that, as in the revised version, it is stated that " 'collecting' in this document means the taking of specimens for close examination", and includes "the temporary capture and release of live insects (eg. for identification)".

...

Of course, it is most important to remember that however you interpret the prior version of the BDS code of conduct it is the OLD version. The revised version of the code came into effect in 2009, with changes made to simplify the code, and clarify the meaning. IMO the actual content has changed very little - I certainly do not understand why you consider the quoted paragraphs to be so bad (although if they can be interpreted to have broadly opposite(?) meanings then I guess that they may not have particularly well worded!).

...

Thanks - this is an interesting response. Firstly, because we clearly agree on a number of things, e.g. a) that the old code is the old code and any criticism of it doesn't apply to the code in existence now, b) that it does contain some sensible words on good & bad reasons for collecting, c) that parts of it are open to interpretation in more than one way.

I took the trouble to quotes the passages in full, so that I wouldn't be accused of misrepresenting the policy, so I'm a bit annoyed with myself that I failed in that! I said I felt that the passages spoke for themselves - and I still think this - but only perhaps if you understand the context in which they are written (more on this below).

That said, I don't feel your interpretation of the passages I quoted is correct. To quote in full the code's definition of collecting:

"Collecting in this document means 'the taking of specimens for close examination': it embraces a wide range of situations - from the temporary capture and release of live insects (e.g. for identification) to the formation of study collections, which may necessitate killing and preserving specimens."

My reasons for feeling that the passages I quoted in my earlier post are so bad are twofold. First, in the light of this full definition, it doesn't distinguish between temporary capture and specimen-taking. Collectors like the one we're discussing can use the code's arguments that you & I might only apply to the former, to justify the latter in their own minds. Second, the old code clearly paints those who wish to object to collection as 'the bad guys' (e.g. describing some of them as having 'agendas', suggesting that some of them may be prone to using violence, asking that their behaviour be noted down). Those words don't seem to me to be open to misinterpretation, particularly if you are aware of the context in which the code was drawn up.

If you read some of the supporting material in BDS publications from around the time you'll get a good idea of what the BDS was trying to do with the old version of the code. It was drawn up as part of of public rebuke to the people at Penlee who objected to Philip Corbet's behaviour. To me, the BDS over-reacted, and their 2004-2009 code increased the risk of bad collecting practice (the 2009 revision of the code feels like a recognition of that on their part).
 
Tristan,

I myself would be very wary of passing out any information into the public domain relating to the occurrence of a rare or scarce migratory species. It appears today that habitats that are occupied by rare dragonflies and other insect species are being hit hard by the appearance in recent years of entomological 'twitchers'.

You yourself mention large numbers of people going to see them. So I have to ask here, before putting this information into the public domain did you consider for one minute what impact the appearance of large numbers of visitors at that site may have had on the Dragonflies concerned? Collectors still exist, as do people who take specimens for scientific purposes. Did you consider that as well, before making the site known?

Harry

As the person who did make the news public I can say I did consider the effect on the habitat, Insect, Country Park and local neighbours. The Dragonflies are easily seen from footpaths, the park is large and has open access and there was ample parking. It was never going to attract the sort of crowds that a very rare bird would and so with that in mind the news was released.

Unfortunately there are a (very) few people that are selfish and do not wish other responsible individuals to share in their pleasure at seeing something so rare and beatiful. Some do this by suppressing sightings for spurious reasons (ie the 'danger' of entomological twitchers) others by destroying habitat or in this case destroying the Dragonfly.

I am not sure what you are saying about collectors, some of your statements seem to justify it and in others you warn of putting news out because of them!

I can imagine that the old school collector/birdwatchers must have had similar arguments when shooting and egging were becoming passe as the new more environmentally concerned, optically and photographicaly better equipped and dare I say it more competent field birders started to emerge. I suspect bumpy times for the older generation of Odonatists as things change, which they surely must.

GH
 
Apologies for what has turned out to be a very long post - but I'm sure you won't read it if you're not really interested!

My reasons for feeling that the passages I quoted in my earlier post are so bad are twofold. First, in the light of this full definition, it doesn't distinguish between temporary capture and specimen-taking. Collectors like the one we're discussing can use the code's arguments that you & I might only apply to the former, to justify the latter in their own minds. Second, the old code clearly paints those who wish to object to collection as 'the bad guys' (e.g. describing some of them as having 'agendas', suggesting that some of them may be prone to using violence, asking that their behaviour be noted down). Those words don't seem to me to be open to misinterpretation, particularly if you are aware of the context in which the code was drawn up.

If you read some of the supporting material in BDS publications from around the time you'll get a good idea of what the BDS was trying to do with the old version of the code. It was drawn up as part of of public rebuke to the people at Penlee who objected to Philip Corbet's behaviour. To me, the BDS over-reacted, and their 2004-2009 code increased the risk of bad collecting practice (the 2009 revision of the code feels like a recognition of that on their part).
Fair points, and I am broadly aware of the details of the Green Darner incident (the details that were published anyway), and the arguments expressed by various parties at the time. I would still be prepared to argue (perhaps incorrectly?) that any organisation facing the possibility of objections like this has justifiable reasons for asking for the behaviour of objectors to be reported to the relevant commitee members (who will then be able to consider the reactions noted when deciding whether, and how, policies/guidlines should be changed to best suit the wishes/needs of all parties). As for the potential threat of violence - If you read through this forum thread you will find that several bird forum members have at least implied that they would take physical action in such a situation (and if any of these members are serious about this I hope that they don't automatically assume the worst if they ever come across someone netting dragonflies and take 'action' without finding out what is actually happening).



I believe that limited collecting is not necessarily harmfull, if it is done for a scientific purpose or for providing a voucher specimen. No one has yet offered any evidence to show that the 'collector' concerned has not taken for one of those purposes.
It is true that the killing of a voucher specimen, or specimens for scientific research, is not necessarily harmful. Insect populations, even small ones, typically contain relatively large numbers of individuals, with a high natural mortality rate - and, in the case of the larger dragonflies, only a fraction of these are likely to be seen at any part of a site at any one time.
I am pleased to see that there seems to be general acceptance that the killing of some specimens may sometimes still be necessary for the serious study of many insects (even if this is found to be distasteful by many). Any entomologist that is seen to be taking specimens should be able to give a reasonable explanation of the reason why they need to do this, and at least a brief account of what they hope to learn (exact details of the latter may be withheld by some simply because they do not want information released before they publish, but they should be able to reveal enough to show that the research is genuine). Remember that for some other invertebrate groups specimens are still needed for accurate identification.
Whether voucher specimens of out of place migrants, and first county or regional records of odonata species is clearly debatable. Many species have increased their distribution in Britain during recent years, and I very much doubt that voucher specimens have been collected (or requested) to prove this. My personal opinion is certainly that it is unnecessary, and photographs should be provided instead (these should then ideally be published in journals, magazines etc. so that evidence of the occurences has the best possible chance of remaining available to future generations). Admittedly photographs may not be useful for all purposes, and if Aeshna affinis is found to be two almost identical species in the future it may not be possible to identify which occurred without a specimen - but what would really be gained from that potential knowledge?
Attitudes to the killing of specimens of easily identifiable species are changing, and (IMO) this is reflected in the revised code of practice of the BDS (and also the code of practice published by Butterfly Conservation). As our understanding of identification grows it will no doubt gradually change for other invertebrate groups as well.


With regard to the specific incident that this thread is concerned with (the Hadleigh SMH), there is IMO very little chance of anything at all being gained from a voucher specimen - and I can think of nothing worthwhile that could be discovered from a specimen that would justify the damage caused by public opinion to scientific collection in general. It is naive for anyone to take the view that museum collections are no longer necessary (and I don't think anyone has said that on here?), and as they are still useful it may sometimes still be necessary for specimens to be collected. Of course, anyone who is genuinely collecting on behalf of, and with the knowledge of, an institution like the Natural History Museum [formerly the British Museum (natural history)], will be keen to avoid any incident that will tarnish the reputation of that institution - even if it means failing to collect the desired specimen.



Similarly, taking a single specimen of a migratory species of dragonfly which has little chance of establishing itself here is not in my opinion going to be a major catastrophy.
The fact that the taking of a single specimen is realistically unlikely to have a lasting effect on the chance of colonisation is not the issue here, however it is perhaps easy to understand that any small chance that there is for the species to become established, is reduced slightly everytime a specimen is taken (and if there is no objection to one collector taking a specimen then doesn't that imply that it is Ok for others to do the same?).



I hope that all those who have read and contributed to this thread also take note of the comments about the possible damage that can be caused to habitats, and their invertebrate populations, by accidental trampling or ignorance of the potential damage they may be causing. Irresponsible behaviour at a dragonfly twitch could potentially cause more damage to sensitive sites than the taking of a single specimen (not that I'm supporting the latter). I'm sure that many of those who have read this thread will be keen to do all they can to stop a collector at any future twitch - I would suggest that this vigilance should be extended to photographers and others who may be causing damage to the habitat (although I'm not suggesting thatany action should be taken other than explaning the harm they may be doing and asking them to step back!).

Roy.
 
Guess he ran out of viagra and needed some other way to get his kicks.

Bizarre this guy was brazen enough to collect in front of admirers so to speak, Gotbig pips for sure. Bet he thinks it lucks super in it's little cabinet too despite being a tad lifeless, Very bizarre indeed.

I have no reasonable argument not that I grieve for the insect either I just find the whole sorry episode very odd indeed.

Cheers
Karpman
 
Legally collected or not this was simply an act of extreme selfishness that deprived others of seeing this lovely creature. What a shame! He's not exactly intimidating is he? He might have simply backed down if someone had the guts to challenge him? Be bold! Mike
 
I agree that the collection of this dragonfly was needless, wrong and selfish. I do not actually believe that it is likely to have done any harm in an ecological sense but believe that it shows a total disregard for his fellow enthusiasts. It's one thing finding your own and collecting it (and of course I do not condone this either), but to twitch individuals that others are travelling to see and enjoy, and then kill one is inexcusable. I am amazed that nobody stood up to him at the time - he doesn't look too handy and I can think of a few that would have stopped him in his tracks.

And for the record, someone told me he's called Warrick Hunt ;)

Cheers

Pete

Oops, looks like there was a mass simultaneous posting of similar views from people in the same office!!
 
I think Harry's hypocrisy is hilarious. He thinks it is ok for him to have local butterflies in his collection, yet he hates other people coming to look at those same populations. I bet he hasn't collected old, worn, close-to-death specimens either, but nice, bright breeding condition individuals. And why do you need your own specimens of UK butterflies in this day and age eh?
This g*t who has stolen the hawker looks like just the kind who would probably be suppressing all sorts of local stuff just because he doesn't want anybody else seeing 'his' dragons etc. The other aspect of this Victorian selfish attitude.
 
I think Harry's hypocrisy is hilarious. He thinks it is ok for him to have local butterflies in his collection, yet he hates other people coming to look at those same populations. I bet he hasn't collected old, worn, close-to-death specimens either, but nice, bright breeding condition individuals. And why do you need your own specimens of UK butterflies in this day and age eh?
This g*t who has stolen the hawker looks like just the kind who would probably be suppressing all sorts of local stuff just because he doesn't want anybody else seeing 'his' dragons etc. The other aspect of this Victorian selfish attitude.

Jono,

The butterflies I have in my collection that are in perfect condition are all bred specimens, I collect a fertile female in the wild, obtain ova and breed these out. In most cases I get over 90% of these through to the adult stage, whereas in nature only perhaps two or three may survive to adulthood.

For every butterfly I take from a site alive I frequently put back fifty or more on the site where the original specimen was taken.

In Northumberland and Durham the area that I work there are no real rarities like Swallowtail, Adonis and Chalkhill blues, Purple Emperors or High Brown and Silver-washed Frits. and I wouldn't journed a mile to see any of them.

The only scarce Butterfly is The Large Heath. I have spent 15 years studying this species in the field for the full six weeks of the flight period for every one of those 15 years. I have been able to contribute a considerable amount to out knowledge of this species.

Historically just 74 sites in Northumberland were found between 1828 and 1990, I managed to raise that number to 158 sites and in doing so located some bog habitats of such good quality that no less than six of them have been declared SSSI's. There are now more Large Heath butterfy breeding sites in Northumberland than in all the rest of England and Wales put together. (Not bad for a county about which Richard South (1905) wrote 'The Large Heath appears to have been exterminated in Northumberland). I was one of just two 'Consultants' on this species during the preparation of the Species Action Plan written up by Butterfly Conservation.

I have two or three specimens of Large Heath from each of the 158 sites I have surveyed and not a single one of them is perfect. The life expectancy of this butterfly in the wild is just 3.2 days. Most of the specimens have beak mark impressions from Meadow Pippets. I have bred several thousand Large Heath for release on the sites where the parent butterfly(s) was/were obtained.

So far from depleting the butterfly population of this country I have spent most of my adult life trying to make sure that many species are now more abundant that they were in the past.

I have carried out entomological survey work for the Northumberland National Park, The MoD, Northumberland Wildlife Trust, The Forestry Commission, Northumbrian Water, Butterfly Conservation and British Dragonfly Society. I have been a recorder of Odonata and Lepidoptera and Bumblebees since the original BRC recording schemes were set up in the early 1960's.

So I have a relatively small collection, it isn't a crime, and it will go to a local museum where it will be appreciated hopefully by future researchers.

I don't publicise the Large Heath sites I have discovered because I know that there are at least two persons, (not from my area) who raid sites for large numbers of specimens. They've both been kicked off several SSSI's and NR's around Britain, one of these men has carried out mass collecting on several sites in Northumberland, so I'm not going to issue a list to help him pillage further. Natural England is aware of these persons but catching them in the act isn't easy when you don't know where they're going to go next.

Never accuse someone of hypocricy unless you know what your talking about.
There are very valid reasons why I don't publicise sites I have detected. The land owners know where they are, (and many of these don't want the site publicised) as do the organisations that commission my researches. That's enough. Nearly every site is on private property anyway and without access permission your not likely to even get onto the land, never mind locate the sites.

Now then Jono. Your contribution to preservation and conservation of British Insect species is? Or perhaps you are just an entomological twitcher who just longs to get another tick in his book.


Harry
 
Last edited:
Any recent news by the way? I'd very much like to see one of these but don't want to go without some recent gen.

Sorry if this is somewhat off (recent) topics.

TIA, Thomas
 
Spoke to the Essex Dragonfly recorder today - apparently the s. Migrant hawkers are still present at Hadleigh
 
As one of the angry "mob" that dissuaded the late great Corbett from pinning the Penlee Darner I guess my take on the collection of the SMH are pretty easy to discern. I do understand that the taking of specimens is required under certain circumstances - none of which applied to the SMH - and that most of our knowledge has come from, and continues to come from, "old school" entymology.

I'm pleased to see that the BDS have made their position against this collection quite clear.

So - any news of late? Hopefully some twitchers on site tomorrow?

If only to stop the old beardies from bagging the last of them!
 
Do we know which population these Hawkers come from? Would it be possible to find out through DNA analysis? Could that be done without collecting?
 
Do we know which population these Hawkers come from? Would it be possible to find out through DNA analysis? Could that be done without collecting?

(1) European
(2) Yes (BDS Code 2.2 Where tissue sampling (e.g. for molecular analysis) is a practicable alternative to killing, this should always be considered. DNA can be extracted from legs or exuviae.)
(3) If by collecting you mean killing then yes it can be done without killing - see 2.
 
Im sorry folks,just cant agree with everyone getting hot under the collar about the collecting of an "insect" especially a lot of people who are probably birders who have jumped on the "odonata" bandwagon,how many of you stamp on spiders,swat flys and wasps,put ant powder down when you get up for breakfast and find them in the jam..we birders dont seem to take criticism too well maybe we should leave the dragonfly experts to run their hobby as they see fit..oh and I did go and twitch a lesser emperor the other year and very nice it was too..
 
Warning! This thread is more than 14 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top