Suffolk Sea Eagles? (1 Viewer)

[Jos Stratford]

Jos , I do wonder how much you understand the ecological impacts that can occur ...

I won't bother responding to this.

Because cranes and other local species you refer to do not have negative responses in your local area does not mean the same species will react in the same manner in a situation where they have not met the introduced species.
...
The type of Baltic ecosystem you are talking about differ from East Anglian in some ways .

I spoke of the interaction between these species throughout their range, not just in my local area. White-tailed Eagle occurs in lowland coastal ecosystems across large parts of Europe, including not so many kilometres from East Anglia.

....ecological impacts that can occur when a new species enters a ecosystem whether it is found in similar ecosystems or not. At the very least native species take time to a just to new species entering their habitat..

Do you have any evidence to show negative impacts when White-tailed Eagles returned to the following countries after long periods of absence due to human impact? The Netherlands, Denmark, Lithuania, Latvia, Kaliningrad, Poland, etc. All these countries saw White-tailed Eagles become extinct about a century ago, all have seen the populations returning. Okay the period of absence from East Anglia is much longer, but again given the co-species we are talking about are the same across the countries, it would be very useful if you could pinpoint any evidence to show any negative effects.

You have already agreed a natural spread of White-tailed Eagle into the UK would be welcomed by you (presumably this not causing the impacts you believe man bringing them would), so I really do not understand your opposition on conservation grounds. Especially given that persecution on the continent is also a likely reason that the spread into the UK has not already occurred. If humans had not decimated them from across northern Europe, the number of individuals available for expansion into East Anglia would have been much higher for the whole of the last century (eg the species was driven to near extinction in the entire Baltic region population (defined as Sweden, Denmark, Poland and the Baltic States) - the absence of these 2000 plus pairs, many of which naturally winter to the south-west, hardly provided the conditions for a westward spread of population.

 

[david kelly]

"You have already agreed a natural spread of White-tailed Eagle into the UK "

Jos,

Alex Salmond hasn't got his way yet so we already have White-tailed Eagles in the UK. We also have them in lowland UK and in North Sea ecosystems with important wildfowl populations and no one is complaining.

I'm referring to the current reintroduction prokect in the Tay/Forth area.

David

 

[Tideliner]

If you do not understand my objections on conservation grounds ( even if you do not agree with them ) that only shows your lack of understanding of the ecological implications of the introduction of these eagles.

As for my understanding I have 35 years experience working in the field in conservation ( including over a decade working in the field with raptors. ) , 4 years studying ecology as a student and 10 years lecturing in the subject at university.

If the sea eagles spread here under their own steam great even if they do have negative effects on other wildlife , that’s part of the natural biological process. Such a process would be slow over many years . That’s a very different situation to numbers of sea eagles being released into an area by man over a short period of time . The latter gives generations of other species to accept and learn avoiding tactics , the mass injection of eagles does not give other wildlife the time to adjust.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Either way, just a question of time, spread from the British populations, spread from the continent or reintroduction, White-tailed Eagles will probably successfully breed in Suffolk, I don't believe there will be any negative impacts.

However, regardless of positions on the wisdom or otherwise of a reintroduction, I can't help thinking the vocal campaign, particularly the (widespread?) use of signs 'say no to eagles in Suffolk' can only be a bad thing - having educated the public at this very simplistic level that eagles are not welcome, the task ahead to re-educate should a pair arrive of its own accord will seem rather odd to the layperson I would assume.

 

[Jos Stratford]

If you do not understand my objections on conservation grounds ( even if you do not agree with them ) that only shows your lack of understanding of the ecological implications of the introduction of these eagles.

As for my understanding i have 35 years experiance working in the field in conservation ( including over a decade in raptor protection ) , 5 years studying ecology and 10 years lecturing in the subject at university.

Happy for you that you are so qualified, you are however arrogant to dismiss others, supposing they lack understanding.

I have read your objections, I respect them, I do not however share the view that they are valid grounds - having considered them and considered the situation with White-tailed Eagles throughout their range, I still see no true conservation grounds to oppose this scheme. Thus, yes, I do struggle to understand the passionate opposition held by some.

 

[Jos Stratford]

If the sea eagles spread here under their own steam ...Such a process would be slow over many years

...the mass injection of eagles does not give other wildlife the time to adjust.

Is this true? In relation to White-tailed Eagles, do you have anything to back up this opinion?

Again, with respect to your understanding, were there any negative impacts following the reintroduction of White-tailed Eagles into Denmark?

Or why do you suppose a natural spread could not occur over a relatively short period, more or less equating to the rates that might occur with a reintroduction? As in much of the lowland Baltic region (which I am sure you will dismiss it as irrelevant as not East Anglia), White-tailed Eagles returned to one Baltic State only in 1986, the population now stands at about 90 pairs. I would not classify that as 'slow over many years'.

 

[RobLucking]

The white-tailed eagle breeding population is still only 50 pairs in the UK. On the basis of this and the historical population decline, it is a red-listed species making it a high priority for conservation action. The amount of money it is likely to cost to re-establish WTE as a breeding species in the UK is tiny in comparison to what is being spent on Environmental Stewardship to reverse the decline in farmland birds.

I take your point about taking on board the opinions of birders, landowners etc but isn't this why the consultation period has been extended? There are also lots of supporters of the project whose opinions are equally as valuable.

... And all this for what? For a species that is not even a conservation priority!

 

[Amarillo]

The only true reason to oppose the restoration of the species in the UK is the island mentality of the people residing there, not the species of bird residing.

As an island, our ecology is obviously slightly different to the continent so a bit more caution might be required, but I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. We have become so used to a countryside without any large, predatory or in any way threatening creatures that we think we can no longer cope with them.

Look at the reaction to wild boar - a species that lives right across Europe in all kinds of habitats, the opposition to beavers etc. The fact that we are an island means we wiped out our native species before continental countries and in the case of most species means they can't return without our help.

 

[Dave Appleton]

The white-tailed eagle breeding population is still only 50 pairs in the UK. On the basis of this and the historical population decline, it is a red-listed species making it a high priority for conservation action.

Actually I believe the size of the population being less than 300 breeding pairs is only an amber list criterion, but I'm being pedantic as you're right in that the historical population decline between 1800 and 1995 is a red list criterion for JNCC.

Its presence on the IUCN Red List does not make it a high priority. The IUCN red list assessments are evaluations of threat, not of conservation action priority. IUCN acknowledge, "The category of threat is not necessarily sufficient to determine priorities for conservation action." White-tailed Eagle is evaluated as the lowest threat category available, a category which would not even have merited an appearance in the red list until 2003, that of "Least Concern". Indeed, "Widespread and abundant taxa are included in this category" (IUCN).

A system that does deal with priorities, however, is the UK Biodiversity Action Plan. Within this there is a UK list of priority species - and White-tailed Eagle is not a priority.

Essentially this boils down to semantics - high priority, low priority, not a priority - just depends on how you define priority. Of course it's entirely appropriate that White-tailed Eagle is the beneficiary of an appropriate level of conservation action and expenditure. I'm not arguing that because it's not a UKBAP priority and its IUCN assessment is only Least Concern then we drop it altogether from the conservation agenda.

 

[Dave Appleton]

I take your point about taking on board the opinions of birders, landowners etc but isn't this why the consultation period has been extended?

Is it? I thought taking on board the opinions of stakeholders was the reason why there was a consultation period in the first place. If the planned consultation period failed to take on board the opinions of stakeholders then what will be different about the extended period, I wonder. But I do hope you're right.

 

[Jacana]

My argument is very much about concerns relating to conservation. Whilst you overstate the balance of opinion versus facts in my article make no mistake that opinion is a critical ingredient of any conservation initiative. I am deeply concerned that the RSPB and Natural England's failure to take honest stock of the opinions of this project's stakeholders (including local birders, landowners and members of the public) will not only impact this project's success but will bring their reputation and that of conservation in general into disrepute. The consequence of that will be far greater than the presence or absence of a few Eagles in East Anglia. And all this for what? For a species that is not even a conservation priority!

I agree with this statement. If this project went ahead and landowners didn't feel in the loop it could have serious implications for future projects of greater concern. As it has been said on other threads, many landowners and/or gamekeepers see the RSPB as their "arch rivals". A project like this might fan the flames.

I know Jos has been arguing his point purely on the basis that the birds won't have any significant effect on native fauna (which I agree with). Surely the above statements should also be taken as seriously?

 

[Pierre van der Wielen]

Funny to see this discussion again... This raged in The Netherlands when the plans leaked to introduce them to the Oostvaardersplassen reserve. At the time it was judged mostly a publicity stunt from the organisation that manages the reserve. In the end it was decided not to introduce as spontanious nesting was to be expected within 20 tot 30 years. The German population was doing well and the number of wintering birds was (and is) increasing all the time.

Still we were rather surprised that only a few years after the discussion the first breeding pair turned up in 2006. They have now bred succesfully for four years with 1 to 2 young every year.

Even more encouraging is the fact that for some time now there are two other adult pairs around in other parts of The Netherlands which might start to breed soon! They can be seen displaying and we watched one pair flying around with sticks a few weeks ago!

And as we nowadays also get adult wintering birds in good habitat (I only saw my first adult after about 15 years of birding here) there might be more pairs to follow?!?

Pierre

Great news today! Both of the pairs I spoke of in this earlier mail have been confirmed as breeding. So there are now three pairs of WTE breeding in The Netherlands.

And there are still some birds hanging around at other places. No potential pairs yet (at least that I know of).

Pierre

 

[gropperwinch]

just one little question. not too long ago, Suffolk probably had no birds of prey at all. Buzzards were exctinct, Peregrines were exctinct, Marsh Harriers were exctinct, Montagu's Harriers were exctinct, Honey Buzzards were exctinct, Red Kites were exctinct, Little Ows hadn't expanded that much and Barn Ows were rare. and a lot of other birds of prey would also have been very rare. The only 'common' birds of prey would have been Kestrel and Tawny Owl. Happily, all the birds of prey have increased recently. And what has happened to populations of east anglia's key species, Avocet, Crane, Stone Curlew and al the other typica birds of the Norfolk and Suffolk countryside. Have they decreased?

I'll leave it at that

 

[James1]

I agree with u, black kite 1964 the whole thing sounds like a publicity stunt with nothing thought out properly. All I say is leave the birds alone!