The Last Stand of the English Red Squirrel, and my Red Squirrel Quest.... (1 Viewer)

[Alan Hobson]

Time to report back on my Cumbria trip [see post 99]. I saw a fleeting glance of a Red squirrel in the grounds of Brougham Hall, but definitely the least impressive sighting of my quest so far. However, as noted at the beginning of this thread, I had seen a Red in Cumbria some years ago.

For all those who gave tips where to see them in Cumbria, my thanks; when I go on a longer trip into the county, I will be able to use more of them, such as the Bassenthwaite sightings that a number of you mentioned. However, this trip was a brief one, to the Haweswater area, in order to make my annual trip to see the Golden Eagle there. I did indeed see the eagle - great views, as always.

 

[Martin Thomas]

You may wish to add Greystoke Forest to your list of Cumbrian sites. I live adjacent and will gladly assist you if required. It is currently one of the largest grey free zones in Cumbria (the other being Whinfell Forest, Centerparcs, also near Penrith where I can also assist you). Sightings should be virtually guaranteed at either location at the right time of day/weather. Feel free to PM me if you would like to know more.

 

[pianoman]

The status of Irish Red Squirrels might be a tad off topic here, but was inspired to add this after seeing one Grey last night, and two Red this morning at my local patch, Kindlestown Hill in Wicklow. Hadn't seen either type there before, so was intrigued by the apparently simultaneous arrival of both.

Turns out on enquiry that Red has in fact been seen there intermittently over the last 10 years; I've been here for six and had never seen one. That makes me a little less jubilant because it might after all be the Grey that's the new arrival.

Read what studies I could find on the status of Red here. As far as I can tell, Grey was introduced in Ireland not long after Britain. Yet it doesn't seem as ubiquitous as in UK, not appearing much in suburban gardens unless they back right onto an oakwood. And, thankfully, the Red is not in such a dire situation. Grey most certainly has ousted Red in many areas however.

My question to Alan and the other squirrel experts is:

• Are there any circumstances in England you know of where Red prevails even when Grey turns up in an area? Tree types, etc.
• Longer shot, for any Wicklow locals: Has Grey been seen in the Kindlestown area before?

thanks,

Andrew

 

[Alan Hobson]

My question to Alan and the other squirrel experts is:

• Are there any circumstances in England you know of where Red prevails even when Grey turns up in an area? Tree types, etc.
• Longer shot, for any Wicklow locals: Has Grey been seen in the Kindlestown area before?

thanks,

Andrew[/QUOTE]



Hi Andrew,

Thanks for yours. No, not off topic really - several other posts have branched out beyond England, as will my quest once I get the English counties done.

It was also interesting to hear about the situation in Ireland.

To answer your question:

There are lots of examples of Reds holding out in a sort of small-scale, struggling way, once the Greys arrive in an area. One example I gave on an earlier post on this thread is Castle Eden Dene in County Durham. The Greys arrived around six years ago, and the Red population immediately crashed, but a small contingent of Reds holds on to this day.

However, I suspect by "prevailing" you meant keeping the upper hand over the Greys in terms of numbers and occupation of habitat. And sadly for Britain the answer is no. The Reds always decline in numbers and range habitat occupation once the Greys arrive into a Red area.

The closest we have to exceptions is two examples I mentioned in earlier posts: a) in a wood on Anglesey, where Greys were exterminated so that Reds could be reintroduced there [successfully to date], and b) the only colony in North Yorkshire, where a new wood was planted which Reds got to first and the landowner subsequently kept Greys at bay.

However, neither example is actually going as far as Reds prevailing of their own accord in an area where Greys have arrived.

Hope is helpful.

Best wishes

Alan

 

[pianoman]

Many thanks, Alan. Only through BF can you get access to experience like this!

Read a study from N. Ireland:

www.ehsni.gov.uk/pubs/publications/report.pdf

which seems to find that Red maintains its population if the tree mix is just right. Under other circumstances it takes about 10 years to be supplanted.

Apparently, (1) A substantial portion of mature Scots pine and minimal large broadleaf trees, esp. oak, is the key. (2) There must also be a corridor of at least 5km between this woodland and the nearest broadleaf forest. Kindlestown satisfies (1), but (2) is a problem because the wood nearly touches some native Oak forest.


Fingers crossed, but I suspect I'll be mostly grey myself before the outcome is truly known

Andrew

 

[LJH]

Hi there
If it's any help we saw a couple in the forest between Keswick and Borrowdale (yet again in Cumbria!)

 

[pianoman]

Thanks LJH, I wonder if Scots Pine is a feature there too?

 

[Martin Thomas]

Not really. It's traditional oak based decidious woodland (which was the red's original native habitat). More recently, there has been a move to cut down coniferous trees and replant with 'native' species (which will make it easier for the greys to spread.

The only reason the reds are hanging on in Borrowdale is because of an aggressive grey culling policy.

 

[Alan Hobson]

Hi Andrew/Pianoman,

Thanks for yours and the kind comments. And more interesting facts and stats from Ireland/Northern Ireland.

The latest stage of my quest is about to appear below, when I return from a meeting I am about to rush off to...[the lure of BF means I now have only three minutes to get there, in a different building....]

 

[Alan Hobson]

Northumberland - a future last refuge on the English mainland?

A few days ago I completed the latest stage of my quest - Northumberland. Regular readers will know that this is a trip I have been planning for quite some time, and I have gained a lot of useful tips on this thread for where to see Reds in Northumberland from Stewart J., Gill Osborne, and others.

Armed with these useful tips, I ventured forth. I had to cancel the last planned trip up there because of a work trip to the Shetland Isles, but another opportunity to visit Northumberland came on the way back from my annual birding trip to the Cairngorms.

My girlfriend and I - having seen a Red Squirrel up at Lochindorb in Scotland - stayed the night at a B&B in the western reaches of Northumberland, a couple of miles north of Haltwhistle. I asked our landlady if there were Red Squirrels nearby, and she told us there were in a copse just down the road.

So after breakfast off we went - and we saw two Reds sitting by the road, next to the copse, eating. They looked attractive and healthy. And very visible. Excellent! So it was a very swift completion of that stage of the quest. The tips from Stewart, Gill et al earlier on this thread are still useful of course - for me when I go up again, for others who use this thread, and also to give a good record for posterity. But as it was, this time we could use the rest of the day to do things like visit Hadrian's wall (where we saw some Crossbills, as well as lots of good views) and the superb Hexham Abbey.

One day northern and western Northumberland could be the last mainland refuge of the Reds in England (one hopes the island populations on Isle of Wight and Brownsea Island will survive) - hence the title of this thread.

Meanwhile, what of my quest? I have now done all the seven traditional English counties [ie. pre-1974] which definitely have Red squirrels - Cumbria, Dorset, Isle of Wight, County Durham, Yorkshire, Lancashire and Northumberland. [listed in the order in which I saw the Squirrels, not in importance, I hasten to add!].

In terms of modern counties, I have done eight, with Merseyside being the additional one. But whereas in the old counties it is seven out of seven, with the new ones it is eight out of either nine or ten, as Tyne and Wear also has Red squirrels, and South Yorkshire may have a dwindling last remnant of population [see post 1].

So, as there was some discussion on some of the missing posts as to which counties should be counted - traditional or current - people can take their pick! I have done both lists above.

I have not included Norfolk/Suffolk - ie. the handful of Reds left in Thetford Forest. This is because, as mentioned in an earlier thread, these were an artificially reintroduced colony - although this was done for good and understandable reasons, of course - and also, like South Yorkshire, there are very, very few left, if any (only three sightings in the whole of 2004, and none as far as I am aware to date in 2005).

So the English stage of the quest is coming to an end. But the quest, as I indicated in some earlier threads, will expand to cover the British Isles/United Kingdom. Now, can I get a work trip to Jersey........

 

[Stewart J.]

Hi Alan and glad you enjoyed Northumberland, your B & B would have only been a couple of miles from me. If your up here again and would like to meet pm me.

On a more sobering note I was speaking to a couple from Norfolk who were camping at the National Trust site near Featherstone on the South Tyne and they told me a Grey was coming down to food at the campsite which they found unusual given Reds were also present.

More worrying still, I was speaking to a good friend and exceptional naturalist from Slaley on Sunday. He was telling me he'd observed a Red on the feeders that looked unwell with a lot of scabbing around the eyes pointing to parapox.

Isnt it a shame that we could be looking at the last few years of Reds in this area.

Stewart

 

[MH68]

Had some great views of Reds in Gosforth Park today and Saturday.At one point today I had 4 within view at the same time.It`ll be a real shame if the Greys make their way into the park as the Reds seem to be thriving.

Mark

 

[pianoman]

So the English stage of the quest is coming to an end. But the quest, as I indicted in some earlier threads, will expand to cover the British Isles/United Kingdom. Now, can I get a work trip to Jersey........

Wow what an epic quest. If you ever make it here hope I'll still have Reds to show you in my patch. Thanks Alan

 

[Alan Hobson]

Hi Stewart,

Thanks for yours. Yes, it would be good to meet up when I'm up that way again. As you are so close, do you know the copse I mean? It is on the B road which runs north of Haltwhistle, and about two miles east of Greenhead.

Very sad to hear about probable parapox at Slaley, but it was almost inevitable once the Greys arrived there a few years ago that it would come. It is indeed a tragedy if the South tyne area of Northumberland is about to see the demise of its Reds.


Hi Andrew/Pianoman,

Thanks for yours and your kind comments. If/when I do get to Ireland, you're on - it would be good to have a local guide to help me locate some Reds!


Hi Mark,

Excellent to hear that the Reds are still flourishing in Gosforth Park - thanks for the report. I must make it up there next time I'm up! As you say, it would be a tragedy there too if the Greys arrived and ruined the flourishing Red population. Long may the Reds survive there.

 

[Stewart J.]

Hi Stewart,

Thanks for yours. Yes, it would be good to meet up when I'm up that way again. As you are so close, do you know the copse I mean? It is on the B road which runs north of Haltwhistle, and about two miles west of Greenhead.

Know exactly where you mean Alan, its also not far the the RAF Spadeadam Base (just over the border into Cumbria) which has a big Red population and research was going on using transmitter tagged individuals (may still be ongoing)

Stewart

 

[breffni]

irish squirrels - minor point

In Ireland both the reds and greys were introduced, the former about 1815 and the latter progressively from about 1900. Prior to 1815 there is no trace of red squirrels in ireland whatsoever. In conservation terms the biggest victim (of both) is arguably irelands ancient hazel stands...(incidentally the english red is probably an introduction from the continental race, as reds are known to have gone extinct in mainland britain about 1700, so the genuine ancient english red may be long gone alas)...

 

[pianoman]

Prior to 1815 there is no trace of red squirrels in ireland whatsoever. In conservation terms the biggest victim (of both) is arguably irelands ancient hazel stands..

Wow, I knew that Red had been re-introduced to both islands at one stage but didn't know that it wasn't native to Ireland before. Don't know what to think now. If both types were introduced at about the same time then there's obviously a different dynamic going on to that across the water.

Thanks Breffni

Andrew

 

[breffni]

Wow, I knew that Red had been re-introduced to both islands at one stage but didn't know that it wasn't native to Ireland before. Don't know what to think now. If both types were introduced at about the same time then there's obviously a different dynamic going on to that across the water.

Thanks Breffni

Andrew

I'll post the literature refs next time i get back to the ucd library...squirrels are unknown in the irish fossel record prior to 1815 when there was a well documented introduction. In Britian they date back to the last great ice age (+10 k yrs) but died out in the little ice age (ca 1700) and were reintroduced thereafter from continental stock.

 

[Martin Thomas]

The first record of greys being introduced to England was in 1876. Many red introductions happened in the same era when it was fashionable to import 'exotics'. I've been led to believe the Formby population is predominantly German in origin.

Here in Cumbria we see many colour variations including some predominantly black (such as at Hutton-in-the-Forest near Penrith) and these too were supposedly European introductions at some point in time. Lurz & Gurnell have published a paper which identifies a genetic race of Cumbrian squirrels but I'm at a loss to understand how this can be if all reds in England were introduced. Time for some detailed reading for me I think!

Interestingly, reds had a major decline in the early part of the 1900's but it wasn't attributed to greys. That said, my personal feeling is we will be lucky to have more than a couple of pockets of reds in Cumbria in 10 years time.

 

[Beany]

In Britian they date back to the last great ice age (+10 k yrs) but died out in the little ice age (ca 1700) and were reintroduced thereafter from continental stock.

I'd be very interested to know what the evidence is for this. As they've been known to be in decline since the mid 1900s, that would only give them about 200 years to colonise the massive area they are known to have occupied in Scotland and N. England.

I don't doubt that there have been many introductions and re-introductions in Britain, but I'd be very surprised to learn that all the reds on mainland Britain were descended from historical introductions.