• BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE!

    You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

The various Mr. Verreaux's and their Birds … (1 Viewer)

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
Completion

Still having an "unrealistic expectation of life lengths" I will not continue this unfortunate side-track regarding my formulation "far to early", to early, early (or late!) in their lives ... my lingustic skills dosn´t allow me to to bicker in style, demography is not my main concern ... I was simply looking for the Verreaux Brothers. And their Birds.

I was, in fact, only looking for the man behind the Coua; Jules Pierre Verreaux (1807–1873). And him we solved!

The rest of the Verreaux's I hereby leave to you.

Verreaux ... over and out.
 

njlarsen

Gallery Moderator
Opus Editor
Supporter
Barbados
Björn,
sorry, I did not intend to step on your toes. My intent was to help you get your manuscript right.

Niels
 

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
No toes stepped on!

Niels, No hard feelings, it was due time to close the Verreaux's ...

There are soo many, to many, more birds, and their respective, actual persons, to look into, without me having to go astray on peripheral relatives ... in precisely that ambition; to get my "manuscript right".

Cheers!
 

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
Correction of Reference

Lassius, Y. 1981. Les voyageurs naturalistes du Jardin du roi et du Muséum d'histoire naturelle : essai de portrait-robot. Revue d'histoire des sciences 34 (3-4): 259-317.

Should be: Laissus, Y ... etc. etc. See link, in Post #14. Slip of finger. Sorry!
 

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
It´s apparently hard to leave dear old Jules Verreaux (1807–1873) …

In trying to finish my entry on the bird commemorating Jules Verreaux (that is in my manuscript of Swedish Common Bird Names) I´ve got stuck on a few, more or less, important facts regarding this man (and his relatives). Whithout proper understanding of French it is hard to figure out what is the truth, or not. Maybe someone of Bird Forums knowledgeable readers might know the answers to my remaining seven questions? Or just any of them?

Ok, here goes …

No. 1: Jules Verreaux followed (at the start only eleven, or twelve, years old!?) his uncle, mother Joséphines (older/younger?) brother Pierre Antoine Delalande (1787–1823) on his expedition to South Africa 1818–1820 …. but does anyone know exactly when they left Paris/France and when they returned? The Expedition itself, on location, begun in November 1818 …

No. 2: And, maybe even more important. How many natural specimens did they collect during that South African Expedition? Some sources states: "13 400" or "13 405" but other claim the staggering number being "131 405"!? The collection apparently contained mostly plants, but also about 10 000 insects, 3875 shells, 2205 Birds, 322 reptiles etc. etc.

No. 3: The same discrepancy goes for Jules Verreaux's own Expedition to Australia and Tasmania 1842–1847. Did he collect "11 500" or "115 000" specimens!?

No. 4: And does anyone know if Jules, like his brother Édouard, ever, for sure, went to Asia? As claimed by quite a few. Or is this just a mix-up of the two brothers? I tend to believe the latter.

No. 5: When did their father Jacques Verreaux die?

No. 6: Anyone knows the birth and death of their mother (Joséphine Simone Verreaux, born Delalande)?

And the last and final question-mark:

No. 7: Was Jules Verreaux ever Director of the Natural History Museum Musée dʼHistoire Naturelle in Paris ... like some articles and books claim? If so, between what years?

I would hate to be forced to leave out most of those parts …
 

James Jobling

Well-known member
H. M. Whittell, 1954, The Literature of Australian Birds, pp. 729-730, includes the following;
"Jules Pierre Verreaux (1807-1873). Born in France, August 24, 1807. From 1818 to 1820 he was at the Cape of Good Hope and, from 1820 to 1825 he studied at the Paris Museum under G. Cuvier and Isadore St. Hilaire [sic]. Jules Verreaux was again at the Cape from 1825 to 1830... With his brother Edouard he made voyages to the Philippines, Cochin China, and China from 1832 to 1837, but they lost collections made in South Africa and ms notes in the wreck of the Lucullus in 1838. ...in 1842 he left for Australia where he spent five years. He took back to the Paris Museum (the Museum Jardin des Plantes) some 11,500 natural history specimens ...On his return to Paris from Australia Jules Verreaux acted as aide-naturaliste to the Museum Jardin des Plantes for some years and, in his spare time, determined and labelled the birds in the Maison Verreaux."
 

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
Thanks, James!

Also see: Finding order in Nature, 2000 (p.26).

Or, much closer in time, and in French, closer to the original sources and Field of experience … that in some way feels more reliable; Revue zoologique 1842 (pp.370-372)

Or the even more detailed article Nouvelle observations sur l'Ornithologique, in L'Illustration, in Journal Universel 1848 (of which reliability I know nothing) (p.404)

Without understanding much French (close to none) I don’t know what to believe …
 
Last edited:

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
I´ll try to answer some of my questions myself ...
No. 1: Jules Verreaux followed (at the start only eleven, or twelve, years old!?) his uncle, mother Joséphines (older/younger?) brother Pierre Antoine Delalande (1787–1823) on his expedition to South Africa 1818–1820 …. but does anyone know exactly when they left Paris/France and when they returned? The Expedition itself, on location, begun in November 1818 …

According to Delalande himself (!) they did leave Paris in April 1818 ... when young Jules Verreaux (born August 24, 1807) was only eleven years old.

See this link: Précis d'un voyage au cap de Bonne-Espérance, fait par ordre du Gouvernement or the same on BHL

No. 2: And, maybe even more important. How many natural specimens did they collect during that South African Expedition? Some sources states: "13 400" or "13 405" but other claim the staggering number being "131 405"!? The collection apparently contained mostly plants, but also about 10 000 insects, 3875 shells, 2205 Birds, 322 reptiles etc. etc.

See attached page (of the same article) ...

And now it´s only four questions left! I think James's reply (Post #26) took care of No. 3 ...

Cheers!
 

Attachments

  • mmoiresdumus81822mus_0197.jpg
    mmoiresdumus81822mus_0197.jpg
    210.5 KB · Views: 85
Last edited:

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
Jules Verreaux continuation …

I´ll continue this one-man-show … (at the present that is. It´s Easter holidays, and I guess you guys "out there" are busy doing more important thing than trying to find old, elusive French Ornithologists. You´re hopefully out Birdwatching. If so: Good for you!) … and will try to answer my own questions, this time: (No. 4 and 7, from Post #25).

I do think that Jules did stay in South Africa the whole time until 1838. I thereby assume Édouard went on that trip (in 1833?) to Asia by himself …

From 1825 Jules Verreaux apparently helped, and worked together with, Sir Andrew Smith (1797–1872, "Founder of the first South African Museum") establishing a local Natural History Museum in Cape Town, [South African (later National) Museum – today's Iziko South African Museum], where Jules worked as naturalist, keeper, taxidermist and Curator from 1829 all the way till 1838 (when he returned to Paris).

Anyone think otherwise?

Also see the very thorough German Wikipedia pages regarding both Jules Verreaux and Édouard Verreaux.

And I haven´t found anything that verifies Jules ever being the Director/Directeur of the Musée dʼHistoire Naturelle in Paris, though he succeeded Florent Prévost (1794–1870) there as "aide-naturaliste" (Assistant naturalist) from 1864 to his death.

Don´t hesitate to prove me wrong!
 

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
Remaining questions to solve ...

... from post #25:

No. 1: Jules Verreaux followed (at the start only eleven, or twelve, years old!?) his uncle, mother Joséphines (older/younger?) brother Pierre Antoine Delalande (1787–1823) on his expedition to South Africa 1818–1820 …. but does anyone know exactly when they left Paris/France and when they returned? The Expedition itself, on location, begun in November 1818 = CHECK!

No. 2: And, maybe even more important. How many natural specimens did they collect during that South African Expedition? Some sources states: "13 400" or "13 405" but other claim the staggering number being "131 405"!? The collection apparently contained mostly plants, but also about 10 000 insects, 3875 shells, 2205 Birds, 322 reptiles etc. etc. = CHECK!

No. 3: The same discrepancy goes for Jules Verreaux's own Expedition to Australia and Tasmania 1842–1847. Did he collect "11 500" or "115 000" specimens!? = CHECK!

No. 4 (the most important one!): Does anyone know if Jules, like his brother Édouard, ever, for sure, went to Asia? As claimed by quite a few. Or is this just a mix-up of the two brothers? I tend to believe the latter.

No. 5: When did their father Jacques Verreaux die? According to Archives Nationales at least their father Jacques was dead in February 1847:
"Inventaire après décès de Jacques Verreaux, naturaliste, boulevard Montmartre, n° 2.
11 février 1847
" /.../
"inventaire après décès; Montmartre (boulevard); Verreaux, Jacques; chercheur"
No. 6: Anyone knows the birth and death of their mother (Joséphine Simone Verreaux, born Delalande)?

No. 7: Was Jules Verreaux ever Director of the Natural History Museum Musée dʼHistoire Naturelle in Paris ... like some articles and books claim? If so, between what years? = CHECK!
 
Last edited:

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
"mb1848"

I still feel pretty sure about the years of Jules Verreaux (1807–1873) ... but I have a one minor issue left regarding his exact birth date ...

In Greef v. Verreaux Jules proved he was a minor and not able to contract for marriage without his parents permission through his birth certificate and passport, all saying he was born August 24, 1807. (Page 151)
http://books.google.com/books?id=MW8DAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false .

I´m only allowed a "snippet" view on Google Books (as attached) ...

... but doesn´t that tell us that he was born, the "preceding day": the 23 August 1807?

Do you have access to the whole page/text?
 

Attachments

  • books.png
    books.png
    6.9 KB · Views: 88
Last edited:

l_raty

laurent raty
In proof of his minority the defendant produced an acte de naissance, bearing to be an extrait du registre des actes de naissance, de l'an 1807, and to have been granted by the sworn principal registrar of the Tribunal of the 1st Instance, of the department of the Prefecture of the Seine, as keeper of the Records at Paris, on the 17th April, 1822, setting forth that on the 24th August, 1807, Jacques Philippe Verreaux, naturalist, presented before the adjoint du maire of the 12th arrondissement of Paris, a male infant, the child of himself and his wife, born on the preceding day, to whom he declared to give the name of Pierre Jules. Also, a passport, dated 4th April, 1826, bearing to be granted by the Prefect of Police, of the department of the Seine, to Mr. Verreaux (Pierre Jules), a naturalist, to proceed to Toulon, and thence to the Cape of Good Hope, in which it was stated that the bearer was of the age of 18 years.

Based on this he would be born on 23 Aug 1807, yes.
 

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
Thanks, Laurent!

So I thought. That would mean there are a lot, and I mean A LOT, of erroneous claims ALL over. If it´s true, that is. But Supreme Court's are rarely wrong, quite "picky" whith their Papers ...

Compare, for example, with his (quite comprehensive) Obituary (nécrologie) as in: des Murs, O. 1874. Notice nécrologie sur Jules Verreaux, Voyageur et aide-naturaliste du Muséum dʼhistoire naturelle de Paris. Bulletin mensuel de la Société dʼacclimation (3e Série Tome 1): 37-47. See link (here)

Maybe this text can answer some of the remaining questions (particulary Nr. 4)?

Do you (or anybody else, knowing French) feel like browsing through it, and maybe give us a brief summary, or just pin-point the most important parts or anything else remarkable or just read-worthy?

PS. The Age of Majority was 25 in Cape Town, untill 1829, when it changed to 21 (and just recently to 18).
 

l_raty

laurent raty
I went through it quite rapidly, thus it's not impossible that I missed a couple of details that might have interested you. Hopefully not too many.

A chronology of his life according to this text would be:

24 Aug 1807: birth of PJV.
1818: PJV travels to the Cape of Good Hope with his uncle Delalande. He stays there during 2 yrs, sorting the material Delalande gathers, and going out or hunting with him.
1820: he comes back to Europe; until 1825, he "attaches himself" (I'm not fully clear what this means exactly--either he worked there, or he frequented the place a lot) to the laboratory of the Muséum de Paris; works with Cuvier, Geoffroy St-Hilaire, Vieillot.
1823: Delalande dies.
1825: PJV, then 18 yrs old, returns alone to the Cape.
1830: he had gathered so much material that he is forced to call his brother Edouard, to help sort it, and bring it back to France. In France, his collection is exposed.
1832: he calls his brother once more at his side. For the next 5 years, they travel together to the Philippines and Cochin China (this is your "Nr. 4").
1838: having gathered another collection, as rich as the first one, he sends it to Europe on a merchant ship, the Lucullus, while he travels back on another vessel. The Lucullus sinks, and the collection is lost.
18??: he doesn't despair, though, and prepares a new trip, to Australia and Tasmania. He will spend five years there.
1848: the collection gathered during this trip (more than 150,000 specimens) is exposed in France.
18?? (dates are basically lacking in the text from this point on): the text says he worked 15 consecutive years on bird systematics, and continued to work on this subject until his death. Meanwhile, he reorganized his brother Edouard's stores, place Royale, turning them into some kind of museum or school, where learned people came to study. When Charles Bonaparte came back from his exile in the Netherlands, he worked with him at the preparation of his Conspectus Generum Avium.
7 Sep 1873: PJV dies.
 
Last edited:

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
A thousand thanks!

Laurent, what can I say!
Once again your´e more than helpful. Great jobs sorting that out.

This answers my No. 4 and on top of that add a few other thinks making this cases more logic. This will do. The remaing question-marks are easier to either ignore or account for a bit vague. They don´t matter in any significant way.

Thanks to you I now, finally will be able to finish my entry on this man.

Jules Verreaux ... once and for all: over and out!
 

Taphrospilus

Well-known member
I think at least Turdus libonyana verreauxii Bocage, 1869 OD here is wrong in the key as Bocage wrote on p.342

ao nosso amigo Jules Verreaux

One more on Laurents chronology:

1870 escaped from France to London due to the Franco-Prussian War. In London he met the first time Richard Bowdler Sharpe.
 
Last edited:

Taphrospilus

Well-known member
But the question reamains: Did he really die in 1868!?

See here p. 833 or the extract of Cape of Good Hope Government Gazette: So it highly probable that he died July/August 1868.

If we might find the birth place of Jules there might be a chance to find Alexis birth as well. Nevertheless if they are born in Paris like Édouard it is possible that their entries in archive en ligne are destroyed by fire.
 

Attachments

  • Alexis Verreaux.JPG
    Alexis Verreaux.JPG
    48 KB · Views: 70

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
Regarding the death of Alexis Verreaux ...

Martin, I wouldn´t trust any Lawyers, executors or other legal bureaucrats to be that efficient (even today it can take several months, even years), such a notice could as well be the result of the passing of a/his wife, or any other relative (leaving the estate all abandoned, open for any remaing "Creditors & Debtors"), this far I will trust Lassius's footnote that he died in 1861.

Don´t hesitate to prove me wrong!
 

Björn Bergenholtz

... also known as "Calalp"
Nothing, I guess, ... ;)

This far I think it all boils down to whom to trust, what Author you think have done the best research. Looks like you/we need to find a place and/or date. I´ve tried before ... with no luck.

However, note that the Mearns's (most respected) Audubon to Xántus: The Lives of Those Commemorated in North American Bird Names do claim "1868" (here).

Keep digging!
--
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top