Twitching and your carbon footprint. (2 Viewers)

[tittletattler]

And if I remember rightly ain't I under orders to take you with me next time?? I promise I will if you get that vasectomy your missus keeps threatening you with..
[ /I]

Too late mate. My balls are now in a jar under the sink. Next to my back bone.

Confused you for Bono? Well maybe I will go Brazil next year 'with or without you'. When should we go? 'October'?

Back to the thread.....a good point was made by Boomer which was that if we weren't birders, then I think it's in our nature to have some sort of hobby. I'd never really considered that before.

 

[DunnoKev]

Too late mate. My balls are now in a jar under the sink. Next to my back bone.

Confused you for Bono? Well maybe I will go Brazil next year 'with or without you'. When should we go? 'October'?

Back to the thread.....a good point was made by Boomer which was that if we weren't birders, then I think it's in our nature to have some sort of hobby. I'd never really considered that before.

Sorry to hear about you being testicularly challenged TT. Chin up. Both of 'em. And y'know I can't have any time off in the autumn, too busy ringing British birdies!!

Seriously, I think hobbies, whatever they be, will be tailored to fit the cloth. I commented elsewhere that road traffic seemed waaay down on what you'd usually expect for a sunny summer weekend. Loads of people can't afford to drive as much. And haven't birders admitted to swapping long-distance twitching for local patch/county twitching in the past because of expense? Costs will always make us adjust our carbon footprints more than right-on views..

DunnoKev
- - - - - -
Supporting Suppressex County Council's policy of getting everyone walking more by doing away with buses and trains..

 

[ColinD]

....Seriously, I think hobbies, whatever they be, will be tailored to fit the cloth. I commented elsewhere that road traffic seemed waaay down on what you'd usually expect for a sunny summer weekend. Loads of people can't afford to drive as much. And haven't birders admitted to swapping long-distance twitching for local patch/county twitching in the past because of expense? Costs will always make us adjust our carbon footprints more than right-on views..

I think you're right Kev. When I look back at my birding career, it's changed from dude, to twitcher, to local patch birder to, to surveyor, to recorder, back to dude again, and now semi local twitcher / biking birder. None of this was planned, it just happened so that I could fit birding in with the rest of my life, (e.g. got job, got married, bought house, had kids, changed jobs, kids growing up etc.). My birding had to adapt or die. Like most other people, no part of my life has ever stayed the same from one year to the next, so my birding has had to evolve to suit. The main changes in my life so far have been driven by time and money, and I don't really see that changing.

To answer the original question, whilst I firmly believe that Global Warming is real and is Man made, and I do many miles by bike, and I recycle all I can, I have no intention of giving up my car or birding holidays abroad, in order to reduce my carbon footprint. It is time and cost that would stop me using the car for birding, twitching or otherwise, not carbon footprints. And prices would have to rise an awful lot more than they are now to stop me flying for example. I enjoy my holidays too much to worry about an extra £100 on the cost.

Incidently, when I last changed jobs, I was out of work for 5 months whilst I looked for a job close to home. I was determined not to travel far to work, and turned down jobs while I was looking. In the end I've ended up 5 miles from home, with no traffic to speak of. Takes me 15 minutes to get to work. It was a difficult 5 months, but now I'm reaping the rewards, and that alone reduces my carbon footprint signifcantly.

 

[mr.sim]

Slightly changing the subject...how much do people think the cost of petrol will rise to before it starts falling/stays put? I hope its not too much because we can't just completely abandon our cars, but then again I hope its enough to make people walk/cycle/take the bus to work instead of driving a couple of miles. It's good exercise too!

 

[Sancho]

Slightly changing the subject...how much do people think the cost of petrol will rise to before it starts falling/stays put?

I´m afraid I´ve got some rather bad news for you, mr. sim....it´s not going to fall again. Very simple.....more humans,equals more human activity,equals increased demand for a commodity that´s limited in supply,and getting scarcer as we speak. Ergo.....on your bike!

 

[ovenbird43]

Slightly changing the subject...how much do people think the cost of petrol will rise to before it starts falling/stays put?

I agree, it's never going fall very far or stay put very long. When I first started driving 10 years ago, gas was 89 cents a gallon... but those days are long gone. People will have to make the change eventually. If they don't choose to, sooner or later they will be forced to. Among the first to suffer will be those over here driving ridiculously huge trucks and SUVs. What angers me is the number of people who own these vehicles that still drive them a mere 1/2 mile (or less!!) to campus and back every day, and then complain about the "parking problem" on campus.

 

[Jos Stratford]

I´m afraid I´ve got some rather bad news for you, mr. sim....it´s not going to fall again.

However, it will level off at some stage. Salaries will climb, fuel accordingly will become relatively less. Regardless, we'll still fill the tank.

 

[ovenbird43]

However, it will level off at some stage. Salaries will climb, fuel accordingly will become relatively less. Regardless, we'll still fill the tank.

Is there any guarantee that salaries will climb accordingly? Yes, there are many who will still be able to afford gas for a long time yet, but I find it hard to believe that everybody's salary is going to increase enough to cover fuel costs. What I have been seeing lately, if anything, is an increasing separation between the rich and poor, with a diminishing of the middle class. This has not been drastic, but is likely to continue. There are those who will be able to meet the increasing prices, and others that will not.

Of course, my pessimistic views come from being a "starving student". My income certainly isn't going to increase in the next 5 years, and although I don't live in poverty, I can't comfortably afford much more than cheap housing, utilities, and food. And for that matter, the price of food and tuition have also been rising. Thankfully, I don't have to use my car on a daily basis... I don't see how I could afford to, even with a relatively fuel-efficient car.

 

[mr.sim]

However, it will level off at some stage. Salaries will climb, fuel accordingly will become relatively less. Regardless, we'll still fill the tank.

Until the raw materials run out...
Hopefully we'll be using hybrid cars soon (cars that run on ethanol) and electric ones too.
But we have to find a cost effective solution...FAST!!!

 

[Sancho]

Slight problem with the "rising salary, levelling oil prices" model....as salaries rise, demand for oil will....wait for it.....increase. Income effect on demand. People will want to buy more stuff with that extra income, and that extra stuff will necessitate further usage of oil in its production. Fuelling (no pun intended) further price rises. I hate to say it folks, but it´s the beginning of the end of the oil age. And there isn´t any substitute (ethanol, hybrid or electric cars, etc. etc. etc.) that can provide the same amount of energy as we´ve been used to using for heating, lighting, transport and production. Fasten your safety-belts, there´s turbulence ahead.....

 

[Jos Stratford]

Until the raw materials run out...

They've been saying that snce the 1970s, still hasn't happened yet. High prices will result in exploitation of reserves previously thought uneconomic, plus attempts to diversify into other sources, seek more efficient uses of current supply. There is plenty of oil to keep us arguing for donkeys' years yet.

Besides, on that far distant day when oil does finally begin to run out as an economic commodity, we will have either weaned ourselves off it in favour of other energy sources or will be too busy killing ourselves in wars to control the dwindling supplies. Still, we will be driving about.

 

[dantheman]

Oil usage/demand growing something akin to exponential, if all else stays equal. (Due to booming growth in certain countries). Extraction not able to follow this.

Peak oil (ie maximum oil extracted, from that point on less and less available to extract, following a bell curve) - happening any time around now. (Maybe not if we can find some new reserves eg Antarctica (!!!!!!) or alledgely get oil from Oil Shales (but that will be v. pricey as quite difficult.) Oil will probably cause problems when it goes short, problems for food transport in the short term eg here in the uk (leading to civil unrest), wars following (witness the Iraq fiasco already) more frequently etc etc.

On the immediate car front-

Would like to know what the carbon footprint of a new car is. Surely there becomes a trade off in running an older, slightly less efficient car as opposed to throwing it away and building a whole new one from scratch (let's say obtaining the raw materials from an open cast mine somewhere in the third world (consequences.....??), transporting these half the way around the world, building the car (using lots of energy again), and then shipping that somewhere else...)

Plus the alternatives (ethanol and electrical merely get their power by burning fossil fuels somewhere else down the line...).

Feeling quite cheerful today for a change . . .

 

[Jos Stratford]

Slight problem with the "rising salary, levelling oil prices" model....as salaries rise, demand for oil will....wait for it.....increase.

Salaries will rise and match any fuel increase, happened in the last fuel crisis when half the world thought the days of oil were numbered, will happen again.

However, there are obvious advantages with high oil prices. In fact, I already can say that I am quite happy with the current high prices ...encourages manufacture and purchase of better fuel-economy models, both of planes and cars, gives mild heart attacks to drivers of gas guzzlers. And persuades most governments to move back towards nuclear. I see no negatives.

 

[Sancho]

And persuades most governments to move back towards nuclear. I see no negatives.

I´m getting behind the parapet on this one....Do I hear "Incoming!!!"?

 

[StrikingSlug]

I love this sort of discussion, with the Flat Earth climate change denyers champing at the bit to compete with each other and claim it's not our fault. Sure, it's easy to say you're not going to do anything to reduce your carbon footprint because a) it's got nothing to do with you, and b) why should you change when China/India/USA/anywhere else you choose shows no sign of improving. You may not agree with the proven science, but surely the economic arguments begin to make a bit of sense? And it's amazing just how much difference a lot of small steps can make.

On the over-popultation front, I also find Western pontification amusing, as again it is blaming someone else for the problem - something that is becoming increasingly common in society. In the West we actually have the opposite problem - a falling population. Who do you think is going to be working to pay all those taxes needed to look after all of us in our old age???

To lighten the mood, and also make what I believe to be an important point, check out the thumb below - a cartoon from The Times (in London for the US readers of this thread).

Richard

 

[Jos Stratford]

I love this sort of discussion, with the Flat Earth climate change denyers champing at the bit to compete with each other

Didn't notice the bit of the thread doing this.

In the West we actually have the opposite problem - a falling population. Who do you think is going to be working to pay all those taxes needed to look after all of us in our old age???

Go get a private pension plan, all sorted.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Is there any guarantee that salaries will climb accordingly?

No guarantee, but already happened/happening. Maybe not where you live, as the U.S. also managed to screw up its ecomony at the same time. Never mind, I'm sure a nation with one of the highest salary levels and one of the lowest fuel prices will manage to squeeze through.

Of course, my pessimistic views come from being a "starving student". Thankfully, I don't have to use my car on a daily basis.

Hmm, a starving student, yet still one wealthy enough to own a car. Nice.

 

[Boomer]

Well...at this point this thread has NO chance of returning to its original subject as posted by the OP...sorry, Mannix (I did try three times already). It is a GREAT thread, though! Cheers, All B .

Ron

 

[ColinD]

I love this sort of discussion, with the Flat Earth climate change denyers champing at the bit to compete with each other and claim it's not our fault. Sure, it's easy to say you're not going to do anything to reduce your carbon footprint because a) it's got nothing to do with you, and b) why should you change when China/India/USA/anywhere else you choose shows no sign of improving. You may not agree with the proven science, but surely the economic arguments begin to make a bit of sense? And it's amazing just how much difference a lot of small steps can make.

On the over-popultation front, I also find Western pontification amusing, as again it is blaming someone else for the problem - something that is becoming increasingly common in society. In the West we actually have the opposite problem - a falling population. Who do you think is going to be working to pay all those taxes needed to look after all of us in our old age???
.......

I do agree with the proven science, but I also believe it's way too late to do anything about it. Even if we do still have time we won't do enough to make a difference, because there will always be people who say exactly what you have just said, i.e. population control is just the West pontificating and blaming somebody else. It's not about blame. The World as a whole (yes including the East) has to wake up and realise that action needs to be taken now. I know that the West is to blame for where we are now, but tough, that's the past, we have to move on. Forget the political correctness, we need action now not words. Of course, it will never happen, because there are too many people who think like you. Therefore I say, enjoy it while you can. Thanks for proving my point

 

[StrikingSlug]

Bobby

Of course, it will never happen, because there are too many people who think like you. Therefore I say, enjoy it while you can. Thanks for proving my point

Not quite sure what you mean here, or was my irony too disguised? I think you and I think alike - hence the cartoon.

Jos

My apologies - having just re-read the thread I guess I was seduced by this post:

There is such a thing as living in the real world.When governments have the "bottle" to tackle over population,then we will be heading in the right direction.At long last vast swathes of scientists are questioning the whole area of so called global warming by man.
They just need the media to stop supporting some of the wild accusations being made,and allow the alternative views to be aired.

POP

Oh,and I don't need a Private Pension because I've got a Government final salary one instead!:t:

Richard