Uk Peregrine Population Limit? (1 Viewer)

[Anthony Morton]

I certainly don't remember hoots of derision from the usual 'knock anything pigeon' brigade, accompanied by several completely unnecessary jibes and much additional spear rattling, I do remember costructive criticism about this train of thought, with several theories being put forward.

I take it you've just got a new 5 litre tin of Brilliant White Emulsion - but to be serious for a moment.....

With regards to your quote of the paper "Predation: Prey plumage adaptation against falcon attack" by Alberto Palleroni et al.

It would be nice to see a copy of the full paper without having to pay $30 for it!

As a pensioner I agree and was hoping that a BF member might already be a subscriber who would be prepared to share it with us.

From the small section quoted it is difficult to say much about it, however, one thing that does seem obvious is that the use of live bait pigeons, (experiments) were used to prove a theory.

No, I'm afraid it's not obvious at all from what is written that live pigeons were used and any suggestion to this effect is based only on speculative assumption. All we can say for sure is that this may be the case, then again it may not.

Another point that would need major clarification is the determination that, the pigeons in one particular area evolved a plumage colouration which made them less likely to fall prey to Peregrines. Throughout the feral pigeon populations of the world there are countless plumage colour variations, with no direct proof that any one colouration was adapted specifically to lessen attacks by Peregrines.

I don't think anyone is saying that the pigeons concerned specifically evolved a new plumage colour just to counter raptor attacts. In my opinion it's much more likely to be one of the wide variety of existing colours, or even more possibly a combination of colours, which has been observed to afford this increased protection.

As I said in a much earlier post, this could quite simply be what we call 'pied' pigeons, which are those with a degree of white flights and/or body feathers on a normal pigeon-coloured background. I have read suggestions that when seen from above this might have the effect of altering the pigeon's outline long enough to confuse an attacker into selecting a 'normal' single coloured bird instead. As far as I know, there isn't any hard evidence of this but perhaps the Palleroni et al paper might shed light on the subject.

NB It was my suggestion about 'pied' pigeons which brought forth the hoots of derision last time!

The fact that this one group of observed pigeons with a particular plumage colour were able to evade the predation of Peregrines more successfully doesn't necessarily mean that it was evolved specifically in one race of pigeons for the sole purpose of making them less vulnerable.

I agree completely. It's much more likely to have been just a happy accident of colour in my opinion.

Anthony

 

[Anthony Morton]

Agree with that.

Exit stage left, rattling spear...!

 

[Anthony Morton]

... However, in my opinion, Anthony's sole reason for joining this forum is to agitate in favour of his own interests, namely pigeon fancying and angling. He's denied it countless times of course, but i've never seen any evidence to the contrary, and i'm fairly certain i'm not the only member who thinks that way.

James,

I apologise for butting in on your exchange with 'the tom' and I don't suppose for one minute that I'll have any more luck getting through to you this time than on previous occasions, but...

The only person who really knows why I joined BF is ME - and at the time I assure you it had nothing to do with pigeon fancying, angling, or any of my several other interests come to that. In fact because of my life-long interest in wild birds, I simply followed the numerous sets of returning footprints which eventually led me here.

That you choose not to accept this simple truth is your problem, although you are not alone of course. All I have ever done is to take advantage of the many opportunities that these incorrect suppositions and assumptions afford me. I don't even have to look for openings as they are constantly being handed to me on a plate!

... On the other hand, AM is prepared to play extremely fast and extremely loose with the facts when it suits him (i.e. when he's trying to vilify raptors) but at the merest suggestion some of the many unpunished crimes against raptors might be the responsibility of pigeon fanciers he chucks his dummy

Wrong again, I'm afraid. What you really mean is that when I quote statistics and give my sources you find them difficult to refute, yet the figures from your side (I can't bring myself to refer to them as statistics!) are often pure Mickey Mouse. And it's not a case of my vilifying raptors as you suggest but an attempt to show the sometimes disproportionate effect they can have on their prey species. In any case, it seems we are usually talking specifically about either Peregrine Falcons or Sparrowhawks, so why not say so rather than generalise by constantly referring to 'raptors', most of which cause no problems whatsoever?

Now for another surprise. Whilst I'm quite prepared to accept (and have done so more than once for those who care to read my posts) that pigeon fanciers may be implicated, and therefore cannot be totally ruled out, in some raptor-related crimes along with other groups and interests, I will NOT hold my hand up and lay any of the blame at their door without proof. What's wrong with that? Apart from the fact that it might not suit the views and opinions of everyone on this forum, it's how democracy works here in the UK. And thank God it does work, too!

 

[Anthony Morton]

If you recall Anthony, the discussion started with a couple of us suggesting that white was a disadvantage. You were the one suggesting white was an advantage and wild type was a disadvantage!

I think you'll find I suggested that 'pied' pigeons (i.e. those with a mixture of varying sized irregular white patches on a contrasting background of another usually darker colour) broke up the outline of the pigeon to an attacker.

It's the same principle as painting the upper parts of planes with brown and green camouflage in WW2. This was supposed to make them difficult to see on the ground if an enemy plane passing overhead.

Roger Blue Leader - Out!

 

[Anthony Morton]

We don't need to defend anything, we're not doing the killing.

If I take your word for that, will you take mine that without proof it's not pigeon fanciers either? Innocent until proven guilty and all that!

I find that sort of suggestion highly offensive, Anthony.

Nothing like as offensive as having the 'enlightened' BF member I was referring to gloating that he intends to sell for profit on eBay the pigeon rings he has collected from Peregrine Falcon eyries under cover of the protection afforded to him of a Schedule One licence. Talk about a red rag to a bull. What did you honestly expect - a pat on the back? Please get your own house in order before attempting to lecture anyone else.

In any case, if the member I was referring to in my post is unhappy with my choice of words, then let him say so himself. Surely he doesn't need you to act as 'mother hen' for him, does he? Perhaps the best advice is for him not to dish it out unless he's prepared to take it back in return!

 

[colonelboris]

Anyone else see the relationship here?

 

[Osprey_watcher]

Anyone else see the relationship here?

Oh CB you've let me down.
Just when I thought we were all collectively ingoring his nonsensical ramblings and the roundabout was going to stop.
Still it made me smile.

 

[colonelboris]

I'm sorry, Eddie, I just couldn't help it...

 

[Anthony Morton]

Oh CB you've let me down.
Just when I thought we were all collectively ingoring his nonsensical ramblings and the roundabout was going to stop.
Still it made me smile.

Sound of rattling spear still fading into distance............. :eat: