Water Pipit? (1 Viewer)

[Binocularface]

I am not totally convinced that the images posted by Steve are not Water Pipit (I am not saying they are!). There are a few features on the bird which in my opinion (and limited experience) are pro-Water Pipit.

1) The streaking on the breast and flanks seems to be more defined and less 'smudgy' than I would expect in Rock Pipit

2) The wingbars are very pale (would not expect them to appear so striking in Rock Pipit).

3) The throat is very pale and open in appearence

4) The tertial edges appear very pale

I would suggest (but not state!) the bird is a winter plumaged Water Pipit!

Well that is my two-penith- I now stand to be corrected!

Regards
Tristan

 

[Edward woodwood]

Watcha Jane,

who u get in the draw btw? Still blasting out my FF!

what are the pro litt features though in the pix....as opposed to other possibilites, particularly petrosus?

 

[cuckooroller]

Tim,

Delete your Inbox for the PM's. You're full. Thanks for looking at the item that you know. Jon Hornbuckle photo is involved with it I believe. Thanks again and excuse me with the others for this cryptic message directed to Tim

 

[Jane Turner]

There appears to be a lot of clear white on the outer web of the outer tf - not a petrosus feature, there is a well marked supercilium - also anti-petrosus.

The wing bars are well-marked .... but distinctly off white - not brilliant for spinoletta and though the super is prominent, the eye ring remains the most prominent facial feature.

Oh and the local breeding population of petrosus is 2 pairs, the sub-sepcies is almost completely sedentary, yet there are 4-figure counts of Rockits out on the Dee marshes - one assumes migrant littoralis.

Sunderland so there is a non-premiership team going to Cardiff

 

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Jane - Have there been sufficient ringing recoveries of petrosus to be sure that they're 'almost completely sedentary' throughout their range? I'm sure a lot of them are pretty sedentary but that seems quite a strong claim to make, particularly for a subspecies that's can be so tricky to identify for certain.

Tristan - The bird at the top looks to me like a Rock Pipit (wouldn't want to stick my neck out on the race though). Although I see what you mean with the underpart streaking it still looks way heavier than any Water Pips I've seen, particularly the big broad stripes down the flanks. The underparts also don't look very contrastingly white - a noticeable feature of the 'Water Pipit' in the gallery photo. Also, as Jane says I think the creamy (almost buff) wing bars in the top photos seem to me within the range for Rock Pipits but not as white as would be normal for Water (although a variable feature with wear etc).

 

[Jane Turner]

Jane - Have there been sufficient ringing recoveries of petrosus to be sure that they're 'almost completely sedentary' throughout their range? I'm sure a lot of them are pretty sedentary but that seems quite a strong claim to make, particularly for a subspecies that's can be so tricky to identify for certain.

Not sure there can ever be enough recoveries to be sure - but yes petrosus stay very close to their breeding grounds. I've been chatting to a few county recorders and there are large swathes of the country were just about all the wintering Rockits are now thought to be migrant littoralis

Here is a littoralis taken by Darrell - looks very like the top one - but with still finer breast streaks

 

[Edward woodwood]

recoveries are minimal unfortunately.....

 

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Nice picture Jane (and Darrell) and I see what you mean with the comparison with the first picture (which I suspect is littoralis but I'm not usually confident enough to say for sure on winter plumage). This one in the new photo looks quite a grey one and is a lot like a bird I saw at Fife Ness the other day that I reckoned was probably also a littoralis. That one almost looked like a Tawny Pipit - well not really but hopefully you know what I mean - very pale greyish brown on the mantle and scapulars!

 

[Edward woodwood]

Darrell's is convincing for littoralis and the top bird is a Rockit for me too......it could be littoralis for sure but at the moment the super seems okay for petrosus, the overall colour does too and the underpart streaking certainly is. Littoralis should only show a small amount of whitish towards tailtips though?

There is a cline in littoralis/petrosus though and many littoralis could therefore appear at the end of the spectrum perhaps being shown by this individual...

another split too far....?

 

[Jane Turner]

Nice picture Jane (and Darrell) and I see what you mean with the comparison with the first picture (which I suspect is littoralis but I'm not usually confident enough to say for sure on winter plumage). This one in the new photo looks quite a grey one and is a lot like a bird I saw at Fife Ness the other day that I reckoned was probably also a littoralis. That one almost looked like a Tawny Pipit - well not really but hopefully you know what I mean - very pale greyish brown on the mantle and scapulars!

Here is the tail on Darrell's bird - note the clear white on the outer web but the lack of any significant white on the 2nd outermost TF

 

[Stephen Dunstan]

Tristan,

I still think it is a Rock Pipit, and for what it's worth Scan Rock. If it is a Water Pipit then I've been throwing them back all winter at Roa Island. I know what you are saying front on, but the wing bars aren't pronounced enough and at this time of year the super should be more striking.

With regards to Tim's point about a split too far, I don't think it is because I don't think anyone is seriously lobbying for a split. And in many ways we are doing this blindfold because when littoralis are at their most distinctive they aren't here.

Stephen.

 

[Jane Turner]

Darrell's is convincing for littoralis and the top bird is a Rockit for me too......it could be littoralis for sure but at the moment the super seems okay for petrosus, the overall colour does too and the underpart streaking certainly is. Littoralis should only show a small amount of whitish towards tailtips though?

There is a cline in littoralis/petrosus though and many littoralis could therefore appear at the end of the spectrum perhaps being shown by this individual...

another split too far....?

Tim - littoralis can have fully white outer webs - I know they literature doesn't say that - but I've seen 6 or 7 now with indisputably white ones - 8 if you include Darrell's bird on video. Now I accept that 4 of those were contentious, and like the one at the top, were being called Water Pipits by some people, but three were so blotchy underneath as to be nearly uniform. You've just got to ignore the outers and make sure you see the second outermost TF!

Don't forget that petrosus and littoralis are theoretcially indistinguisahble in winter. I'm in the camp that if people are thinking they might be Wapits, the bird is probably a littoralis, especially if its not within line of site of a petrosus breeding site .

 

[Darrell Clegg]

What a great thread, I love Pipits as you probably all know.

I agree with Jane, from local experience I suspect that most - if not all of our wintering Rock Pipits are littoralis They are very scarce in summer, just 1 or 2 pairs and so far we have had 1 ringing recovery (the bird in the photo) which was ringed in Sweden so removing all doubt as to its racial identity.

Darrell

 

[Jane Turner]

Here is a classic petrosus - smokey grey outers... blotched everywhere, and only really an eye ring on the face. Taken by Steve Williams on Hilbre - were I would wager a small amount it was born.

 

[Cuckoo-shrike]

I agree with Jane, from local experience I suspect that most - if not all of our wintering Rock Pipits are littoralis
Darrell

Yet there are only 23 accepted records for Cornwall (and most of those are of spring migrants)! How are they treated in other county bird reports?
Andy

 

[Edward woodwood]

sorry to have sent this off on a tangent

my initial point was that when Per Alstrom et al say they are indistinguishable in winter......how are we identifying them in winter?

and what about the cline...?

 

[Binocularface]

sorry to have sent this off on a tangent

my initial point was that when Per Alstrom et al say they are indistinguishable in winter......how are we identifying them in winter?

Tim, I think the short answer is that 'we' are not identifying them until early march when they begin to moult into their 'breeding' plumage!

 

[Edward woodwood]

when does a petrosus become a littoralis?

these exhibit clinal differences so it's not black and white

 

[Stephen Dunstan]

Tim,

I'm not aware of a petrosus cline - how does it cline?

The bottom line is probably that some birds cannot be safely identified in the field as Alstrom and Mild suggest. Where I would take issue with them is their suggestion that assigning to race is unsafe, just because there are some tricky birds doesn't mean we should throw out all the rest.

Stephen.

 

[Edward woodwood]

Hi Stephan,

as far back as 89 (in Macmillan guide) Keith Vinnicombe wrote that there appears to be something of a cline between northern British rocks and southern scandinavian rocks, and there is also individual variation, so not all will be certainly identifiable.

Madge and Beaman in HBI (1998) also state 'somewhat clinal'

Vinnicombe also states that littoralis has creamy or pale brown outer t-feathers, with some showing white towards tip of outer