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Why do midrange binoculars exist? (1 Viewer)

tenex

reality-based
After reading such glowing reviews here, I ordered a Maven B3 10x30 demo unit to try out. (The B2 with its AK prisms sounded even more interesting, but I'm thinking about a small lightweight bino.) I ended up wondering... why?

Pros: Very bright for a 30mm, as Maven claims. It has a good sharp view with a fairly wide field, free of annoyances despite even 10x magnification, with only modest pincushion correction. The oculars are large (about 24mm) with decent eyecups, giving a comfortable view free from blackouts despite its 3mm pupil. The B3 is also pleasantly lightweight.

Cons: That bright optical configuration sucks in unwanted light too, needing better darkening or baffling. There's a partial arc of glare around the exit pupil, and the prism edges are easily visible. Bright sources outside the FOV in otherwise dim light produce glare and intrusive rays; I don't know whether this has observable consequences in ordinary daylight, but colors do look a bit pale. And there's a serious problem with the internal mechanism: the same diopter setting doesn't work for near and distant objects. (Is that poor design or just poor QC? It doesn't look good for Maven either way.)

Beyond all that, the body really ruins the B3 for me. The focus knob is metal with unpleasantly hard sharp knurling, and some kind of (viscous?) damping that makes it physically impossible to rotate rapidly. It must be someone's idea of "smooth" but I feel that I'm always fighting it, forced to rotate so gently and slowly that when I finally creep up to the focus I want it glides right past, instead of snapping in nicely. The central hinge is also too loose, so struggling with the knob constantly causes my IPD setting to be lost.

Conclusion: I wanted to like the B3, and there seems to be much to like, especially optically. At the same time there's too much to dislike. I have a Trinovid 10x32 BN to compare it with, and the result isn't close at all. The Maven is somewhat brighter (due to dielectric mirrors now) and noticeably lighter (plastic vs aluminum); I like its smaller amount of pincushioning, and its larger oculars feel a bit more forgiving. The 15-yr-old Leica wins easily on every other count including sweet spot, susceptibility to glare, color saturation, mechanical construction, focus operation, and overall comfort and ease of use. If I were buying today I'd prefer a pre-owned BN for about the same cost, which leaves me with renewed appreciation for mine.

I don't mean these comments as disparagement only of Maven products; I'm willing to believe they're even above average for their class. My problem is clearly with their class. The experience of examining a midrange binocular leaves me wondering why they exist at all, and why people are so eager to select a favorite example to rave about -- two questions that must be very closely related. Of course I can understand inexpensive binos: really being on a tight budget, or just wanting something to keep in the car and not worry about... so get a Sightron, and make good use of it. And I understand alpha glass, which may seem expensive but isn't a major investment like a car, and will probably last longer than your car. Taking into account living standards around the world and choices in life, anyone fortunate enough to be free to spend $500-1000 on a binocular, and interested enough to consider it, can surely spend twice that if they choose, so why not enjoy an alpha? There might be a good psychology dissertation in this somewhere. If you don't sense something a little curious going on here, read Maven's website. They're selling a story, more than a binocular: that you're not like stupid people who overpay for Teutonic glass in order to buy a story instead of a binocular. I assume the irony is unintentional.
 
After reading such glowing reviews here, I ordered a Maven B3 10x30 demo unit to try out. (The B2 with its AK prisms sounded even more interesting, but I'm thinking about a small lightweight bino.) I ended up wondering... why?

Pros: Very bright for a 30mm, as Maven claims. It has a good sharp view with a fairly wide field, free of annoyances despite even 10x magnification, with only modest pincushion correction. The oculars are large (about 24mm) with decent eyecups, giving a comfortable view free from blackouts despite its 3mm pupil. The B3 is also pleasantly lightweight.

Cons: That bright optical configuration sucks in unwanted light too, needing better darkening or baffling. There's a partial arc of glare around the exit pupil, and the prism edges are easily visible. Bright sources outside the FOV in otherwise dim light produce glare and intrusive rays; I don't know whether this has observable consequences in ordinary daylight, but colors do look a bit pale. And there's a serious problem with the internal mechanism: the same diopter setting doesn't work for near and distant objects. (Is that poor design or just poor QC? It doesn't look good for Maven either way.)

Beyond all that, the body really ruins the B3 for me. The focus knob is metal with unpleasantly hard sharp knurling, and some kind of (viscous?) damping that makes it physically impossible to rotate rapidly. It must be someone's idea of "smooth" but I feel that I'm always fighting it, forced to rotate so gently and slowly that when I finally creep up to the focus I want it glides right past, instead of snapping in nicely. The central hinge is also too loose, so struggling with the knob constantly causes my IPD setting to be lost.

Conclusion: I wanted to like the B3, and there seems to be much to like, especially optically. At the same time there's too much to dislike. I have a Trinovid 10x32 BN to compare it with, and the result isn't close at all. The Maven is somewhat brighter (due to dielectric mirrors now) and noticeably lighter (plastic vs aluminum); I like its smaller amount of pincushioning, and its larger oculars feel a bit more forgiving. The 15-yr-old Leica wins easily on every other count including sweet spot, susceptibility to glare, color saturation, mechanical construction, focus operation, and overall comfort and ease of use. If I were buying today I'd prefer a pre-owned BN for about the same cost, which leaves me with renewed appreciation for mine.

I don't mean these comments as disparagement only of Maven products; I'm willing to believe they're even above average for their class. My problem is clearly with their class. The experience of examining a midrange binocular leaves me wondering why they exist at all, and why people are so eager to select a favorite example to rave about -- two questions that must be very closely related. Of course I can understand inexpensive binos: really being on a tight budget, or just wanting something to keep in the car and not worry about... so get a Sightron, and make good use of it. And I understand alpha glass, which may seem expensive but isn't a major investment like a car, and will probably last longer than your car. Taking into account living standards around the world and choices in life, anyone fortunate enough to be free to spend $500-1000 on a binocular, and interested enough to consider it, can surely spend twice that if they choose, so why not enjoy an alpha? There might be a good psychology dissertation in this somewhere. If you don't sense something a little curious going on here, read Maven's website. They're selling a story, more than a binocular: that you're not like stupid people who overpay for Teutonic glass in order to buy a story instead of a binocular. I assume the irony is unintentional.

I really LOVE strawberries. Thus, I have to wonder: why do some people bother with apples, oranges, and bananas?

'Just a perspective; each observer has his or her own. :cat:

Cheer,

Bill
 
I think Bill summed it up very nicely.

I could never understand why people bought a Mercedes when my Toyota truck with hand crank windows works fine for me.


You are being naive if you dont understand everybody is selling a story, just up to you to decide if you buy it or not. The people touting Maven arent fly by nights, they know from where they speak, but they are speaking for their self, not you. If you dont like it, but a Sightron, as for me, I would be hard pressed to switch from my Conquest.
 
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You are being naive if you dont understand everybody is selling a story, just up to you to decide if you buy it or not.

You're being patronizing and cynical, and missing my point: I didn't buy the Leica because of some story. In fact that's the story I was disparaging. I'm starting to regret this post already. Enjoy your favorite binoculars everyone!
 
Hello Eric,

Glare control is certainly one of the well known strengths of the Leica line and of the BN's, in particular.

Comparing the Maven B3, at $500 to alpha binoculars costing three or four times as much is going to reveal what corners were cut. Don't expect to get a Jaguar for the price of a Ford. Going partway from he Maven to an Alpha, say to the Conquest 8x32 HD, might provide fewer disappointments.

I would not question the economic decisions of those who buy mid range glasses. We all balance our purses against our needs and desires. I agree that the cost of alpha glass over a ten year life puts their value in perspective

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:
 
Hi Eric,

It is hard to make a really good low to moderate priced 10x30/32 binocular. In my experience, the only really good ones I have used were Alphas: Specifically the Nikon 10x32 LX L and Nikon 10x32 EDG I and II. These are as good as my Nikon 10x42 SE and Nikon 10x35 EII. The EDG is probably better because of its modern coatings.

There is a poor man's 10x32 which is quite good but it is a 9x32. :smoke:

I am talking about the Pentax 9x32 which is a clone of the Sightron 8x32 except for the power. It could be brighter, but if you can live with 9x instead of 10x it will do the job.

In this $300.00 to $500.00 price range the 8x30/32 will be more competitive with the Big Four's 8x30/32 binoculars.

I haven't tried any of the Mavens but I would not be surprised if the 8x30 version was close to or better than Swarovski's near $1000.00 8x30 CL Companion. I know that my $375.00 Monarch 7 8x30 can give them a run for their money.

Bob
 
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I disagree that "anyone fortunate enough to be free to spend $500-1000 on a binocular, and interested enough to consider it, can surely spend twice that if they choose, so why not enjoy an alpha." To begin with, it's more than twice that amount today, the top tier now costs $2,500, so if you bought a $500 bin, which I have such as the 8x32 SE, you're paying $2,000 less than the price of an alpha, and in the case of the SE, getting a near alpha quality image, perhaps superior to alpha in some ways.

For many people, it is about the money difference, wanting to own the best optics their budget will allow. Being a porro fan, I didn't feel I was missing out owning an SE and EII even after trying some alphas since they lack the 3-D view and more comfortable ergonomics of the porro design.

However, the defects/issues you pointed out with the B3 would not be acceptable to me even at $800, though apparently Frank D. either didn't experience what you did since he gave the bin two thumbs up, or he got a better sample.

Brock
 
Sorry I couldn't get you interested in a possible reason beyond that.

Hi Eric:

From my perspective, there IS no other reason beyond that. Everyone has their own reason for EVERYTHING. Cutting to the chase, I’m often taken as being harsh. But, having been in the industry since the Stone Age, I have seen much water flow under that bridge.

There are hundreds of models coming from dozens of “brands.” Yet, they are ALL (except SOME of the European giants) coming from a handful of actual manufacturers—and cottage industries—in Asia. A POPULAR bino might come into the States under dozens of labels and being described as many more models, differing only in cosmetics, ergonomics, and price. I have seen “enthusiasts” become quite heated debating who has the “best” bino, when I knew bloody well they were made by the same hands in the same plant. A popular opinion or not, that’s the reality of it.

You might not like “mid-sized” binoculars. Yet, for some of us, that’s the only pleasing choice. My birding glass is a Nikon 8x32 SE. You will hear many nice things about that model. But, is it the “grail,” or the only tool around … it is not. I never cease to be amazed at folks who constantly talk about “upgrading” their binocular, when they ALREADY have one of the finest binos on the planet. I have owned several copies of many of the finest electric guitars around (almost 100 with only 3 or 4 coming from the “non-alpha” class. Yet, I have not earned enough money with ALL OF THEM to have paid for ONE OF THEM. ‘Something about a lack of talent. Those who CAN, do; those who can’t, TEACH; those who won’t teach, COLLECT (guilty); those who don’t collect, just CHAT. And when the chatting becomes homogenized, this will be a boring place, indeed. :cat:

Cheers,

Bill
 
After reading such glowing reviews here, I ordered a Maven B3 10x30 demo unit to try out. (The B2 with its AK prisms sounded even more interesting, but I'm thinking about a small lightweight bino.) I ended up wondering... why?

Pros: Very bright for a 30mm, as Maven claims. It has a good sharp view with a fairly wide field, free of annoyances despite even 10x magnification, with only modest pincushion correction. The oculars are large (about 24mm) with decent eyecups, giving a comfortable view free from blackouts despite its 3mm pupil. The B3 is also pleasantly lightweight.

Cons: That bright optical configuration sucks in unwanted light too, needing better darkening or baffling. There's a partial arc of glare around the exit pupil, and the prism edges are easily visible. Bright sources outside the FOV in otherwise dim light produce glare and intrusive rays; I don't know whether this has observable consequences in ordinary daylight, but colors do look a bit pale. And there's a serious problem with the internal mechanism: the same diopter setting doesn't work for near and distant objects. (Is that poor design or just poor QC? It doesn't look good for Maven either way.)

Beyond all that, the body really ruins the B3 for me. The focus knob is metal with unpleasantly hard sharp knurling, and some kind of (viscous?) damping that makes it physically impossible to rotate rapidly. It must be someone's idea of "smooth" but I feel that I'm always fighting it, forced to rotate so gently and slowly that when I finally creep up to the focus I want it glides right past, instead of snapping in nicely. The central hinge is also too loose, so struggling with the knob constantly causes my IPD setting to be lost.

Conclusion: I wanted to like the B3, and there seems to be much to like, especially optically. At the same time there's too much to dislike. I have a Trinovid 10x32 BN to compare it with, and the result isn't close at all. The Maven is somewhat brighter (due to dielectric mirrors now) and noticeably lighter (plastic vs aluminum); I like its smaller amount of pincushioning, and its larger oculars feel a bit more forgiving. The 15-yr-old Leica wins easily on every other count including sweet spot, susceptibility to glare, color saturation, mechanical construction, focus operation, and overall comfort and ease of use. If I were buying today I'd prefer a pre-owned BN for about the same cost, which leaves me with renewed appreciation for mine.

I don't mean these comments as disparagement only of Maven products; I'm willing to believe they're even above average for their class. My problem is clearly with their class. The experience of examining a midrange binocular leaves me wondering why they exist at all, and why people are so eager to select a favorite example to rave about -- two questions that must be very closely related. Of course I can understand inexpensive binos: really being on a tight budget, or just wanting something to keep in the car and not worry about... so get a Sightron, and make good use of it. And I understand alpha glass, which may seem expensive but isn't a major investment like a car, and will probably last longer than your car. Taking into account living standards around the world and choices in life, anyone fortunate enough to be free to spend $500-1000 on a binocular, and interested enough to consider it, can surely spend twice that if they choose, so why not enjoy an alpha? There might be a good psychology dissertation in this somewhere. If you don't sense something a little curious going on here, read Maven's website. They're selling a story, more than a binocular: that you're not like stupid people who overpay for Teutonic glass in order to buy a story instead of a binocular. I assume the irony is unintentional.

Thank you for your review. It has useful suggestions for improvement, issues which should be readily addressed by Maven.
Properly blackening the edges costs little and getting a better grip on the central hinge and the focuser should not be hugely expensive either.
While those steps would not resolve all your concerns, they should adjust the cost/benefit of this glass more to your and other buyers' liking.
 
You're being patronizing and cynical, and missing my point: I didn't buy the Leica because of some story. In fact that's the story I was disparaging. I'm starting to regret this post already. Enjoy your favorite binoculars everyone!

I'm not being patronizing and I am cynical. If you were to say I was being blunt I would agree. But if you dont understand why people buy different quality levels of anything theres not much anyone can say to change your mind.

Sightrons are a great binocular, I think they have a better rifle scope than binocs, but I would not argue if you thought the sightrons were the best for the money. But they are not in the same class as a Zeiss, Swaro or Leica.
 
This is hands down one of the worst posts I've read on this forum. Most people understand that a binocular equaling 90-95% of the optical performance of an alpha for 25-50% of the cost is reasonable; however, some decide they want that true 100% alpha performance level and are willing to pay.

Also, if you were to hand your Leica and Maven to another user, you may get a vastly different opinion. I've not handled the B3 but I have handled similar-range optics (e.g. Zeiss Conquest HD, Meostar HD, Razor HD) and can say they easily beat out the 8x42 Trinovid BN I originally revered.

And I'm not one to disparage alphas because they are alphas - I've owned Swarovski EL binoculars and currently own a pair of Zeiss FLs, and have looked through most models during my time leading birding groups and such. Alphas certainly have advantages (although I'd not always say that advantage was in the optics), but the advantage is much smaller to most users than you seem to see with your eyes.
 
I went back and re-read it, I'm still not sure what you are getting at. You compared a single Maven glass to your Leica and extrapolated that all mid level glass are not worth it.

Your ergonomic complaints are all subjective, others may like the features that you don't.
 
There are hundreds of models coming from dozens of “brands.” Yet, they are ALL (except SOME of the European giants) coming from a handful of actual manufacturers—and cottage industries—in Asia.



Cheers,

Bill

Hey Bill,

Do you know if Kowa makes their own top tier bin (Genesis) or do they farm
all of their binos out to Kamakura or another OEM? I was always curious about this.
Kowa mentions manufacturing on their site, but they don't say which products.

~ Beth
 
Hey Bill,

Do you know if Kowa makes their own top tier bin (Genesis) or do they farm
all of their binos out to Kamakura or another OEM? I was always curious about this.
Kowa mentions manufacturing on their site, but they don't say which products.

~ Beth


Hi Beth:

I’m sorry, I can’t. But as you have surmised, there’s a lot going on behind the scenes. I will say Kowa is one of the REAL players . . . or that they at least used to be. The famous Questar telescope was originally offered with BUSHNELL eyepieces! Oh, but wait; wasn’t Kowa a supplier to Bushnell in those days?

We can discuss much of the lower quality instruments all we want. But, when it comes to the OLD pros, and their better instruments; well, they keep that info close to their vest. Even busy-bodies like me have to go on speculation and inference. If someone deserves my respect, they deserve me not to pry too much.

I will give but one example. There is a major optical company with dozens of products that have been around for years. That company performs ONE task to correct problems with ONE instrument that carries their name! The warehouse, however, is huge.

Cheers,

Bill
 
The comments on this thread are overly harsh and just tend to scare people off these boards and discourage further discussion, IMO.
 
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It is hard to make a really good low to moderate priced 10x30/32 binocular.

Properly blackening the edges costs little and getting a better grip on the central hinge and the focuser should not be hugely expensive either.

Actually, as I tried to say, I was surprised at how well Maven did with the 10x magnification, which I expected to be more of a challenge than the 8x. If you mounted this B3 on a tripod (as you can, it has a socket) and focused it on something and I just walked up and took a look through it, I'd say it was very impressive for $500. Unfortunately that's not how you use a small binocular. And while it does seem that the issues I mentioned wouldn't be terribly difficult to correct, I'm probably missing something. I expect I paid for more than the little red dot on my Trinovid.
 
This is hands down one of the worst posts I've read on this forum.

Thanks so much; I guess I succeeded in being provocative. Next time I'll be more cautious about what I might provoke.

Oddly enough, had you left off that sentence you would have had a worthwhile post yourself, and one I could have agreed with some part of, including that the advantages of alphas aren't always in the optics, as I believe I said.
 
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You compared a single Maven glass to your Leica and extrapolated that all mid level glass are not worth it.

A glass that has been represented here as top of its class, and a class that all seems to be made by the same OEM anyway, so...? And I thought the point of a forum was discussion, so counterexamples welcome! To paraphrase someone, I'd say this is hands down one of the worst discussions I've seen here. Or anywhere.
 
Another point about bino's is that not all of them are for birdwatching. You would think that if birdwatching was your main use or hobby then you would aspire to have the best within your budget. That said I see a number of birdwatchers with reletively 'cheap' optics - tenex might even say completely inadequate. I think it comes down to compromise for the vast majority.

Suprisingly, I have also seen a number of hunters here with Sawrovski and Zeiss optics. This goes against my argument as I would expect them to have an 'alpha' gun and not 'alpha' optics (obviously more money than sense).

Then there are those who have binos for other reasons - horse racing, motorsport, cricket, boats, airplanes etc. Uses are not endless but clearly quality is not as much of an issue. You're not trying to determine if a warbler has a 2nd wing bar but pick out the number on the back of a jumbo!

The last argument is market forces - if there wasn't a market then companies wouldn't be making them...
 
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