Why no Woodpeckers in Ireland (2 Viewers)

[KnockerNorton]

Does regular drumming indicate the presence of a female, or just high hopes?

drumming is like song, so it's no indication of a female. In fact, a lot of drumming is more like an advertisement for a female.

Is it possible from the picture to identify if this is a Scandanavian race?

No. And recent analyses suggest that Scandinavian birds very rarely reach the British isles.

 

[pianoman]

Thanks Poecile -

It's just that I read a theory that Scandanavian birds are more mobile than British ones, and though they rarely reach the British Isles, those that do reach Ireland are Scandanavian rather than British. Just passing it on...

 

[Sancho]

There are fairly specific locations in Wicklow where GSW have been turning up; would it appear odd that vagrant GSW from either the UK or Scandinavia target these sites? Or would it appear even stranger that GSW are present in sufficient numbers to breed, but not to be seen more regularly?

 

[stevensi]

I still can't understand why they aren't present. I mean if a female and male were to turn up what would stop them breeding here? Do we have a very strict woodpecker immigration policy here in Ireland . I've been lucky enough to see GSW as well as the Green woodpecker in the UK and i think they are a wonderful looking bird. It would be a treat to see them regularly over here.

 

[KnockerNorton]

I still can't understand why they aren't present. I mean if a female and male were to turn up what would stop them breeding here? Do we have a very strict woodpecker immigration policy here in Ireland . I've been lucky enough to see GSW as well as the Green woodpecker in the UK and i think they are a wonderful looking bird. It would be a treat to see them regularly over here.

The problem is two birds finding each other, and happening to be in the same place at the same time in time to breed. It's a lot more tricky than it sounds. Clearly not many GSW reach Ireland, so the odds of a suitable pair being in a place at the same time are very slim.

The fact that birds are turning up in similar places over several years suggests a long-lived individual or two...

 

[Sancho]

The fact that birds are turning up in similar places over several years suggests a long-lived individual or two...

That's a bit sad, really. (I mean for the birds, not for us).

 

[Quercus]

Have you thought that there just might be someone in Wicklow that's bringing them over?

 

[Sancho]

Have you thought that there just might be someone in Wicklow that's bringing them over?

It would be a rational explanation for the "patterns". A few isolated birds that appear sporadically in 3 or 4 distinct places, for up to a week or so each, doesn´t make any sense. As far as I understand it would be illegal. And a bit disappointing IMHO. On the other hand, if someone were doing so, wouldn´t it make more sense for them to release a few birds in the same area, in the hope that the poor creatures might actually meet each other one day?

 

[Davidbr]

Just out of interest, have there ever been any records of vagrant Green Woodpeckers in Ireland? I've seen them in a few weird and wonderful places in the UK over the years (even Blakeney Point, on one occasion ||) and I'd always assumed these were migrants/wanderers rather than local birds out of habitat - I can't see any reason why the odd one couldn't cross the Irish Sea?

 

[nickderry]

Just out of interest, have there ever been any records of vagrant Green Woodpeckers in Ireland? I've seen them in a few weird and wonderful places in the UK over the years (even Blakeney Point, on one occasion ||) and I'd always assumed these were migrants/wanderers rather than local birds out of habitat - I can't see any reason why the odd one couldn't cross the Irish Sea?

A quick look on the IRBC website shows that Green Woodpecker records require a description, so I'd assume they have been recorded in Ireland before.

 

[Sancho]

I've just seen this question re. Greens, my copy of "A List of the Birds of Ireland" (Ruttledge, 1980), says it's a vagrant, with three specimens obtained in the "last century" (i.e. 19th), one each at Kildare, Longford and Donegal, and that "no Irish specimen exists", by which I presume Major Ruttledge meant skins in the Museum. Meanwhile the Howth GSW continues to be seen sporadically in the Deerpark area, suggesting that it is, as Poecile suggests, a long-lived isolated bird. (Why it doesn't simply fly back to Wales is beyond me, as we said before you can see Wales from the top of Howth Head. They must really hate water.)

 

[Vogeljung]

According to Birdwatch Magazine - June 2008 Edition, the Great Spotted Woodpecker is now very possibly a resident bird in Ireland (Howth in particular) and another GSW was seen on Cape Clear in the bird report...

 

[John Morgan]

I still can't understand why they aren't present. I mean if a female and male were to turn up what would stop them breeding here? Do we have a very strict woodpecker immigration policy here in Ireland . I've been lucky enough to see GSW as well as the Green woodpecker in the UK and i think they are a wonderful looking bird. It would be a treat to see them regularly over here.

It is possible that important elements of their niche are not up to scratch. Combine that with the tendency of the species to avoid crossing the sea, and colonisation could be very unlikely.

Just across the English chammel are populations of Black, Grey-headed and Middle Spotted, none of which have been seen in the UK since these species were described and naturalists began to record them. That would suggest lack of dispersal possibilities may be the major player in stopping woodpeckers getting into Ireland.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Ireland can now certainly support Great Spots, and probably Greens as well, imo. You should see some of the crappy arable habitat that they breed in in England, commuting between small patches of trees to make up a decent territory. I know one pair breeding in a copse of 13 trees, and flying 400m to another copse of 12 trees to feed. If enough of them made it to Ireland to create a self-sustaining population, then they'd be away. But a single pair isn't enough to create a population. All it needs is a sparrowhawk to come along, or a heavy rain storm flooding the nest, or any other stochastic event, and they're gone. But the British race is probably genetically prone to not undertake water crossings (or else they'd fall off then island, so it's not in any individuals interest to have the urge, so it's probably been selected against), so not many of them are ever going to reach Ireland. Even if one or two pairs are breeding now, that's not really a colonisation, as England has had 1-2 pairs of breeding bee-eaters, common rosefinches, hoopoes etc in some years and nobody considers that a colonisation - it's an extra-limital breeding event.

 

[Vogeljung]

Ireland can now certainly support Great Spots, and probably Greens as well, imo. You should see some of the crappy arable habitat that they breed in in England, commuting between small patches of trees to make up a decent territory. I know one pair breeding in a copse of 13 trees, and flying 400m to another copse of 12 trees to feed. If enough of them made it to Ireland to create a self-sustaining population, then they'd be away. But a single pair isn't enough to create a population. All it needs is a sparrowhawk to come along, or a heavy rain storm flooding the nest, or any other stochastic event, and they're gone. But the British race is probably genetically prone to not undertake water crossings (or else they'd fall off then island, so it's not in any individuals interest to have the urge, so it's probably been selected against), so not many of them are ever going to reach Ireland. Even if one or two pairs are breeding now, that's not really a colonisation, as England has had 1-2 pairs of breeding bee-eaters, common rosefinches, hoopoes etc in some years and nobody considers that a colonisation - it's an extra-limital breeding event.

In my humble opinion, Glenveagh National Park (Donegal) would be a perfect woodpecker reintroduction site....anyone know where the Irish reintroduction project is at??

 

[Pluvius]

There is as far as I know a resident GSW at Finnebrogue Co Down as it has been to some friends birdfeeders over last three years. There was rumour it had bred last year and it was heard this sunday.

 

[iolar]

Do we want woodpeckers? They would intervere with our ecology and kill alot of our young birds and eggs, do they belong here?

I don't think so - if they naturaly re-colonise, fine- but no introductions please! They haven't been here for an extremely long time and our ecology has changed since then. We do not have extensive woodland to hold them and our native birds would suffer.

It reminds me of the debate re the Eagle owl in UK.

On the other hand the re-introduction of the eagles in Ireland is fine as they have only been gone a 100 years or so - nothing significant has changed since.

 

[Vogeljung]

Do we want woodpeckers? They would intervere with our ecology and kill alot of our young birds and eggs, do they belong here?

I don't think so - if they naturaly re-colonise, fine- but no introductions please! They haven't been here for an extremely long time and our ecology has changed since then. We do not have extensive woodland to hold them and our native birds would suffer.

It reminds me of the debate re the Eagle owl in UK.

On the other hand the re-introduction of the eagles in Ireland is fine as they have only been gone a 100 years or so - nothing significant has changed since.

Yes, we do want woodpeckers! And we want more woodland to support them! They were once resident here and they should be again. Woodpeckers may predate some young birds, but don't we have healthy populations of common birds to withstand such predation.

Woodpeckers are integral to woodland ecosystems. Their reintroduction should be part of a wider strategy to reforest parts of Ireland that are bánaithe or treeless for too long.

 

[gymell]

I don't know what type of secondary cavity nesters you have over there. Reintroducing woodpeckers would benefit those species as well. For example, if you had woodpeckers, perhaps you might also be able to bring back nuthatches, etc.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Yes, we do want woodpeckers! And we want more woodland to support them! They were once resident here and they should be again. Woodpeckers may predate some young birds, but don't we have healthy populations of common birds to withstand such predation.

Woodpeckers are integral to woodland ecosystems. Their reintroduction should be part of a wider strategy to reforest parts of Ireland that are bánaithe or treeless for too long.

If you read back through this thread, you'll see that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of compelling evidence that woodpeckers were in Ireland since the last glaciation. Woodpeckers do have important implications for hole-nesting species like tits (and Nuthatch), e.g. the irish Coal Tit, as they are really major nest predators. It is possible that woodpeckers may be contributing to the local extinctions of Willow and Marsh tit in Britain. So be careful what you wish for. Any 'reintroduction' would be into such an altered landscape that it would, in effect, be an introduction of a new species.

If one argues that ireland's forests (whatever they looked like - nobody actually knows) 'must' have cotained woodpeckers, then you're also arguing that they 'must' have contained Tawny Owl, Marsh Tit, Nuthatch etc etc. There's no logical reason to insist on one and not the others.