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Willow Tit Vs Marsh Tit (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ody
- Start date
MTem
Well-known member
Almost impossible to be ABSOLUTELY certain unless it opened its mouth, and the only commonly used visual ID indicator that I can see in this photo is the pale spot at the base of the upper mandible that would INDICATE a Marsh tit, but as I'm sure someone else will chip in, there are several photos of Willow tits (ID'd by call/song) with similar spots.
So a probable Marsh tit in my view.
Mick
So a probable Marsh tit in my view.
Mick
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
Marsh Tit for me too.
As an aside, you'll only get Willow Tits at high altitudes in Greece - if you want to see one, try Óros Ólimbos (Mount Olympus), above 1000-1500 m altitude in conifer forests.
As an aside, you'll only get Willow Tits at high altitudes in Greece - if you want to see one, try Óros Ólimbos (Mount Olympus), above 1000-1500 m altitude in conifer forests.
On single photographs perhaps, but if an observer is in the fortunate position to be seeing the two on a frequent basis, it is certainly not true for the vast majority of birds in the field.
By a range of factors, all point to this bird being a clear Marsh Tit.
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MTem
Well-known member
Agreed, hence the 'almost' ........ And we do only have a single photo, and a front view at that.
I am fortunate to have both visit my garden, and after several years I still get the odd one that surprises me when it opens its mouth.
I'd replace the 'almost' with 'rarely' :t:
lou salomon
the birdonist
it's a marsh tit.
MTem
Well-known member
Well my house is right on the Surrey/West Sussex border, so 'no' they're not extinct, but in my case it's a close run thing!
Mick
MTem
Well-known member
Well clever you - take a gold star.
I was not intending to say it was clever of me, or anyone else, but rather that the frequent stating by many posters that the two are virtually inseparable by anything other than voice is not true. This is not in anyway a criticism of those that request help with identification, particularly as in Britain for example the dire state of the populations is not giving many people the opportunity to see both on a frequent basis.
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FWIW, my two cents worth.
Firstly this a Greek bird, so any idiosyncracies of British Marsh/Willow id might not necessarily apply.
It is a Marsh Tit, not only from the proximal spot on the upper mandible, but also because of a combination of other features, including straight narrow bib.(no flaring). Continental birders tend to see more variety in the range of features on a regular basis. As several people have indicated with their knowlegdeable input, local habits, re altitude also plays a part.
Since the proximal spot on British birds became the only single reliable id feature, people disregard other features. This is false logic, because if a combination of other features indicate one or the other, it is a good indication that it is indeed that sp.
Everybody agrees that it is a Marsh Tit, but not everyone explains why. I see too often the proximal spot argument being used, when the bird is cleary a Willow and has a bit of god knows what stuck on it's bill, or photo artefact falsely points down that route. All the birding experience of yesteryear is not wrong, those experienced birder's always used a combination of features to come to a conclusion. Todays beginners are advised to take this on board, I did and find it sound, sometimes the bill is not imediately obvious because of shadow etc. It is not a dig at anyone personally, just a general observation into the pitfalls of ignoring obvious features.
Firstly this a Greek bird, so any idiosyncracies of British Marsh/Willow id might not necessarily apply.
It is a Marsh Tit, not only from the proximal spot on the upper mandible, but also because of a combination of other features, including straight narrow bib.(no flaring). Continental birders tend to see more variety in the range of features on a regular basis. As several people have indicated with their knowlegdeable input, local habits, re altitude also plays a part.
Since the proximal spot on British birds became the only single reliable id feature, people disregard other features. This is false logic, because if a combination of other features indicate one or the other, it is a good indication that it is indeed that sp.
Everybody agrees that it is a Marsh Tit, but not everyone explains why. I see too often the proximal spot argument being used, when the bird is cleary a Willow and has a bit of god knows what stuck on it's bill, or photo artefact falsely points down that route. All the birding experience of yesteryear is not wrong, those experienced birder's always used a combination of features to come to a conclusion. Todays beginners are advised to take this on board, I did and find it sound, sometimes the bill is not imediately obvious because of shadow etc. It is not a dig at anyone personally, just a general observation into the pitfalls of ignoring obvious features.
MTem
Well-known member
At the risk of another 'what a palaver' post let me say a couple of things
First let me apologise for my somewhat sarky comment to Jos made after a night out last night. Neither polite nor constructive.
Second I agree with the sentiments expressed in Andy Hurley's post above. Certainly all my experience with these tits is exclusively UK and Sweden, mainly the former.
My first post reflects both my own (very local - my garden and the surrounding countryside) experience and what I understand (perhaps wrongly?) is the current view of the BTO. Certainly their website, and the short ID video thingy they have suggest that all of the individual ID indicators are fallible to varying degrees. Although as Andy says if you have them all aligning in one direction then a confident ID is possible.
http://www.bto.org/about-birds/bird-id/telling-apart-marsh-and-willow-tits
As a consequence of having both visit my garden feeders I can observe them from a few feet and all I can say is while I find that most are relatively easy to assign to one or the other I have had quite a few surprises when they subsequently call....... to the extent that I will only 100% ID a bird now if I heard its call. I am trying to compile a series of photos of birds that call so I can illustrate either what I mean, or, equally possibly, that folk like Jos can see something that I can't in the overall jizz, and can accurately ID them every time.
Palaver over?
First let me apologise for my somewhat sarky comment to Jos made after a night out last night. Neither polite nor constructive.
Second I agree with the sentiments expressed in Andy Hurley's post above. Certainly all my experience with these tits is exclusively UK and Sweden, mainly the former.
My first post reflects both my own (very local - my garden and the surrounding countryside) experience and what I understand (perhaps wrongly?) is the current view of the BTO. Certainly their website, and the short ID video thingy they have suggest that all of the individual ID indicators are fallible to varying degrees. Although as Andy says if you have them all aligning in one direction then a confident ID is possible.
http://www.bto.org/about-birds/bird-id/telling-apart-marsh-and-willow-tits
As a consequence of having both visit my garden feeders I can observe them from a few feet and all I can say is while I find that most are relatively easy to assign to one or the other I have had quite a few surprises when they subsequently call....... to the extent that I will only 100% ID a bird now if I heard its call. I am trying to compile a series of photos of birds that call so I can illustrate either what I mean, or, equally possibly, that folk like Jos can see something that I can't in the overall jizz, and can accurately ID them every time.
Palaver over?
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There's a Sticky in the ID forum "Index for ID Q&A" started by our birthday girl this weeks (Jane), where she has brought together hundreds of ID discussions on nearly every species!!
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=15652 - scroll down for Tits/Chickadees.
There's another thread here.
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=15652 - scroll down for Tits/Chickadees.
There's another thread here.
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
Only trouble is, it's not been updated for 3 years!
martin kitching
Obsessed seawatcher
When did that happen? I don't believe that even the author(s) of recently published ID criteria would try to argue that it's the only reliable ID feature. Cheek pattern is also pretty reliable. The new criteria have created an interesting problem though, in that they are being applied literally without consideration for what they actually look like in the field. Probably the most frequent example of this is ID'ing any photographed bird as a Marsh Tit if there's even the slightest hint of a two-toned cheek pattern (despite that fact that Willow Tit has a buff wash to the rear cheeks).
cheers
martin
cheers
martin
rollingthunder
Well-known member
Despite being a dark image and front-on i think it shows some good features that combine to form Marsh Tit and not just the pale mandible spot - call notwithstanding.
More importantly it's never a good idea to get on forums, whatever their subject, after a few beers - leave it until the cool light of day, best off first thing
Laurie:t:
More importantly it's never a good idea to get on forums, whatever their subject, after a few beers - leave it until the cool light of day, best off first thing
Laurie:t:
