New binoculars from leica (8 Viewers)

[ronh]

I can't understand why this increased DOF business has taken such a life of it's own. It was nothing more than the typical exaggerated new product advertisement. Of course some people will see different DOF in binoculars of the same specification, despite what those closed minded scientists tell us, always have and always will.

Ron

 

[Vespobuteo]

I can't understand why this increased DOF business has taken such a life of it's own. It was nothing more than the typical exaggerated new product advertisement. Of course some people will see different DOF in binoculars of the same specification, despite what those closed minded scientists tell us, always have and always will.

Ron

I'm quite amazed to. Marketing seems to go the wrong way.
Even worse, manufacturers are apparently unable to even give us correct specs for their binoculars. Weight is just one example. Transmission is another very blurry area. To state max transmission at a not given wave length is not very informative. Especially when an ISO standard exists.

 

[Chosun Juan]

Yep, there are a few things that can indeed trick the eye into apparently seeing more or less DOF. If there is any "innovative technology" in the Noctivids that increases DOF why hasn't Leica plainly stated what it is and how it works in the official printed information?

Once the binoculars are in the hands of people who can conduct high magnification star tests of artificial stars at different distances we will quickly learn whether there is anything unusual about the DOF.

I can't understand why this increased DOF business has taken such a life of it's own. It was nothing more than the typical exaggerated new product advertisement. Of course some people will see different DOF in binoculars of the same specification, despite what those closed minded scientists tell us, always have and always will.

Ron

Hi Henry, Ron,

Rather than any commercial in confidence "revolution" I think perhaps all of this hoo-hah is a response to the outlandish? marketing claims, and exact wording by Leica, the existence of the patent, and youthfully exuberant speculation by us lot here! :king:

Here is a direct extract from their website: https://au.leica-camera.com/Sport-Optics/Leica-Birding/Binoculars/Leica-Noctivid
"Different technologies and innovative concepts

The latest optical calculations in sophisticated combination with state-of-the-art baffles and premium glass materials ensure image plasticity almost like in 3-D. Thanks to superior contrasts and uncompromisingly large depth of field, fast focussing, wide eye relief and generous eyepieces, you will experience a new way of viewing."

Huh? :h?: :-O ..... just what exactly is "u-n-c-o-m-p-r-o-m-i-s-i-n-g-l-y l-a-r-g-e" dof?? :eek!:

If I have to turn the focus wheel at all, am I compromised?! 8-P

Even in the absence of any REAL innovation, the phrasing seems vague enough to be legally defensible .....

Holger has previously, kindly translated the intended meaning of "plasticity" as "Vividness".

Holger's link to a previous post on dof was quite enlightening http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2739070&postcount=22 .... not only do we have our own personal rainbows (and unicorns! , but also, broadly, dof too :t:

The question is ..... Is there a Real innovation or not? Is it just smoke and mirrors? :smoke:

"revolution" is a MIGHTY BIG word ..... let's just see if there is any real substance to back that up, or whether Leica (in finest Zeiss) tradition is being 'weasely' with the marketing guff, and hopes to legally defend it by being best in a "class" of 1 ! :eat:

I suppose we will find out in due course - Swarovski, Zeiss, Nikon, and Jan ! have the laser measuring equipment ready, and the diamond saws spinning away already on idle - just waiting to dissect the new NV and be the first to learn it's true secrets ! ...... :cat:


Chosun :gh:

 

[DavidBowman]

Hi Henry, Ron,

Rather than any commercial in confidence "revolution" I think perhaps all of this hoo-hah is a response to the outlandish? marketing claims, and exact wording by Leica, the existence of the patent, and youthfully exuberant speculation by us lot here!!



Nice to be thought of as youthful at 66, with decades of birding and binocular use/testing behind me Interesting about the suggestion that the "depth-of-field and 3-D" furore is a response to advertising claims for the Noctivids. Not for me it wasn't! I went to the Birdfair to test/buy a travelscope. I didn't even know that Leica had new bins out and so didn't go to the presentation in the Leica tent. Late morning I wandered in there, saw the Noctivids, picked up a pair, tried them and was immediately struck by (whether real or apparent) more depth of field and a more 3-D effect than I get with my HD+. I personally don't care too much what the tests say, let alone the reviews (which are almost always brand-biased) but I do trust my eyes and experience. When tried alongside the HD+, the effect was clearly visible to me and made for the most immersive view I've yet had with a roof-prism bino. Later and after going away, trying SFs, HTs and Swaros and coming back to the Noctivids, the impression was still as strong. Talking to maybe 20 other birders (who had every possible make hanging round their necks) only one said he couldn't see the effect, which is fine as peoples' eyes can be so different. So, as the HD+ are at least on a par with other alpha bins and the Noctivids show a number of improvements on the HD+, aren't we all pleased to have an even wider choice of spectacular binoculars?

 

[CliveP]

So, as the HD+ are at least on a par with other alpha bins and the Noctivids show a number of improvements on the HD+, aren't we all pleased to have an even wider choice of spectacular binoculars?

Absolutely, now if they could make and sell them for about £50 that would be great.

Ok, I guess not. Well anyway I'm really really happy for all those who have them, no really ...... honestly I am B :C:-@

 

[A2GG]

Now let's not go hog wild with speculatin'

Someone order one of those x-ray vision glasses from the back of
an old comic book, have a good look through the NVid and let us
know what the heck is going on in there.

 

[ronh]

David,

I appreciate your report, and fully believe that you are experienced and honest.

Whether the laws of optics and vision as I understand them have been violated (improved upon!) or something else is masquerading as DOF is pretty much a moot point as far as the user is concerned. I'm encouraged that you were so impressed by the new Leica, and have high hopes for it myself. I'll be 66 myself this month, and although I try to act my age, my heart is going pity-pat. But (predictably) I like the looks of the UV better.

Ron

 

[elkcub]

I'm wondering whether this depth of field thing isn't the same as Leica mentioned back in 2002 concerning it's BN series. I'll bet it is. :eek!:

 

[Vespobuteo]

I'm wondering whether this depth of field thing isn't the same as Leica mentioned back in 2002 concerning it's BN series. I'll bet it is. :eek!:

"Outstanding depth of field provides a good overview without the need for constant refocusing."

I think those Leica BN:s will sell like hotcakes.
Are they available for preorder? Or postorder perhaps...

:t:

 

[Troubador]

"Outstanding depth of field provides a good overview without the need for constant refocusing."

I think those Leica BN:s will sell like hotcakes.
Are they available for preorder? Or postorder perhaps...

:t:

VB unfortunately you need a time machine to go back and obtain these famous bins and also to go back to a time when you were more youthful and strong enough to pick them up and carry them around.....


Lee

 

[Vespobuteo]

VB unfortunately you need a time machine to go back and obtain these famous bins and also to go back to a time when you were more youthful and strong enough to pick them up and carry them around.....

Lee

Yep, but by eating Noctivi(d)tamins aging actually can be reversed.
They will also contribute to a para-normal 3D perception.
Recent research from Leica Medical Institute have showed that.
So be sure to preorder.

 

[Troubador]

Yep, but by eating Noctivi(d)tamins aging actually can be reversed.
They will also contribute to a para-normal 3D perception.
Recent research from Leica Medical Institute have showed that.
So be sure to preorder.

This is so true. You should have seen all the Leica folks on the stand at Bird Fair, they all looked so young and carefree. On Day 1 they were giving away very nice coffee and I swear I had a more youthful spring in my step afterwards. And now you come to mention it the 3D effect was more pronounced after the coffee..............

Lee

 

[ceasar]

I wonder if this perception of the 8x42 Noctivids having better depth of field than the 8x42 Ultravids by some users has anything to do with their longer eye relief and somewhat wider FOV? In my own personal case, and I do not wear glasses, a binocular with 19mm ER is a lot easier for me to use than one with 15.5mm ER. It is much easier for me to find where to brace it on my brow ridge while using it to avoid glare and partial blackouts. I do own and use a Leica 8x42 UV Blackline and I sometimes wish that the ER was just a bit longer.

The Noctivid 8x42s have 19mm ER and a FOV of 404'@1000 yards while the 8x42 Ultravids have 15.5mm ER and a FOV of 389'@1000 yards.

Such a big difference between them makes me wonder whether Leica redesigned the oculars for the Noctivid?

Bob

 

[Troubador]

I wonder if this perception of the 8x42 Noctivids having better depth of field than the 8x42 Ultravids by some users has anything to do with their longer eye relief and somewhat wider FOV? In my own personal case, and I do not wear glasses, a binocular with 19mm ER is a lot easier for me to use than one with 15.5mm ER. It is much easier for me to find where to brace it on my brow ridge while using it to avoid glare and partial blackouts. I do own and use a Leica 8x42 UV Blackline and I sometimes wish that the ER was just a bit longer.

The Noctivid 8x42s have 19mm ER and a FOV of 404'@1000 yards while the 8x42 Ultravids have 15.5mm ER and a FOV of 389'@1000 yards.

Such a big difference between them makes me wonder whether Leica redesigned the oculars for the Noctivid?

Bob

For me the 3D effect was more noticeable than any extra depth of field although there did seem to be more apparent depth but as David pointed out on the day the weather was so dull that our dilated pupils would be interfering with this.

See the cutaways attached. It is not easy see the details but there is certainly an element just above the prisms on the Nvid (the others are Uvids) that has been interpreted as a field flattener on here, but Leica claims there is no field flattener.

Lee

 

[SivaL]

I'm wondering whether this depth of field thing isn't the same as Leica mentioned back in 2002 concerning it's BN series. I'll bet it is. :eek!:

That navy blue Leica BN is one of the best looking binocular ever made. A real beauty 8-P

 

[henry link]

Lee,

A single negative element like that one is used in the Nikon SE and some Fujinon FMT series binoculars to correct off-axis astigmatism while leaving 2-3 diopters of field curvature uncorrected. Low off-axis astigmatism combined with some field curvature does create a kind of illusion of wider DOF because the binocular's focal surface curves closer to the viewer away from the field center. The result is that closer objects along the ground plane toward the bottom of the field will be in good non-astigmatic focus simultaneously with more distant objects in the field center. That could be an explanation of the claims and observations of greater DOF in the Noctivids. A true flat field binocular like the Swarovski SV corrects both astigmatism and field curvature, so it does not have the same effect.

Henry

 

[Vespobuteo]

Lee,

A single negative element like that one is used in the Nikon SE and some Fujinon FMT series binoculars to correct off-axis astigmatism while leaving 2-3 diopters of field curvature uncorrected. Low off-axis astigmatism combined with some field curvature does create a kind of illusion of wider DOF because the binocular's focal surface curves closer to the viewer away from the field center. The result is that closer objects along the ground plane toward the bottom of the field will be in good non-astigmatic focus simultaneously with more distant objects in the field center. That could be an explanation of the claims and observations of greater DOF in the Noctivids. A true flat field binocular like the Swarovski SV corrects both astigmatism and field curvature, so it does not have the same effect.

Henry

Sounds plausible, just wonder, if there is none rather than some field flattening, how will this affect the apparent edge sharpness [at longer distances]?

 

[Troubador]

Lee,

A single negative element like that one is used in the Nikon SE and some Fujinon FMT series binoculars to correct off-axis astigmatism while leaving 2-3 diopters of field curvature uncorrected. Low off-axis astigmatism combined with some field curvature does create a kind of illusion of wider DOF because the binocular's focal surface curves closer to the viewer away from the field center. The result is that closer objects along the ground plane toward the bottom of the field will be in good non-astigmatic focus simultaneously with more distant objects in the field center. That could be an explanation of the claims and observations of greater DOF in the Noctivids. A true flat field binocular like the Swarovski SV corrects both astigmatism and field curvature, so it does not have the same effect.

Henry

That sounds spot-on Henry. I would love to try one on a decent day without all of the inhibitions and limitations of a crowded booth at Bird Fair.

Lee

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

Lee, post 632,
You were probably not aware of it, but Leica served Dutch coffee at the Birdfair and, as you know, every Dutchman uses brain enlighting sugar in the coffee.
Gijs

 

[DavidBowman]

Absolutely, now if they could make and sell them for about £50 that would be great.

Ok, I guess not. Well anyway I'm really really happy for all those who have them, no really ...... honestly I am B :C:-@

I know, they're certainly not cheap. I was lucky enough to sell my HD + to someone I met at the Birdfair for nearly £1K, which, took the edge off the financial impact. I suppose the good side of the almost constant improvement in binocular design is that every new issue brings a flood of top quality second hand bins onto the market

Cheers David