Poll - Do you agree or disagree with the AOS's recent decision to abandon the use of eponymous bird names? (1 Viewer)

[MJB]

And those voices mainly seem obsessed with paraphrasing inaccurately opposing viewpoints.

Worthy of Sir Humphrey Appleby indeed!
MJB

 

[rahopko]

The Urban Birder with James Van Remsen Monday 19 February 7pm

Sign up at the link above. Topic: The discussion against the eponymous name changes for North America’s birds

I know this is short notice, but please try and tune in to listen to "The Urban Birder" interview James Van Remsen - this week's topic is: The discussion against the eponymous name changes for North America’s birds. The "Urban Birder" is a weekly podcast out of the U.K. David Lindo, popularly known as The Urban Birder, is a naturalist, writer, broadcaster, speaker, photographer, wildlife tour leader and educator. His mission is to connect the city folk of the world with the wonderful wildlife that is all around them—even in the middle of the Concrete Jungle. He had previously interviewed Kenn Kaufman regarding his support of the AOS decision to change ALL eponymous bird names. A petition asking the AOS to reverse their decision and return to a case by case due process evaluation of people honored with bird names has more than 5400 signatures to date.

 

[Andy Adcock]

The Urban Birder with James Van Remsen Monday 19 February 7pm

Sign up at the link above. Topic: The discussion against the eponymous name changes for North America’s birds

I know this is short notice, but please try and tune in to listen to "The Urban Birder" interview James Van Remsen - this week's topic is: The discussion against the eponymous name changes for North America’s birds. The "Urban Birder" is a weekly podcast out of the U.K. David Lindo, popularly known as The Urban Birder, is a naturalist, writer, broadcaster, speaker, photographer, wildlife tour leader and educator. His mission is to connect the city folk of the world with the wonderful wildlife that is all around them—even in the middle of the Concrete Jungle. He had previously interviewed Kenn Kaufman regarding his support of the AOS decision to change ALL eponymous bird names. A petition asking the AOS to reverse their decision and return to a case by case due process evaluation of people honored with bird names has more than 5400 signatures to date.

And if you don't want to pay twenty quid?

 

[Jos Stratford]

And if you don't want to pay twenty quid?

Isn't it totally free? I followed the links through to final confirmation and it said no cost throughout.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Isn't it totally free? I followed the links through to final confirmation and it said no cost throughout.

I get a page with a list of payment options £20, £50 or £150

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[Jos Stratford]

Strange, it allows me to checkout the free talk without becoming a member

 

[Paul Chapman]

Strange, it allows me to checkout the free talk without becoming a member

Pice is stated as free and link takes you to Checkout at a price of 1 x £0.00.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Pice is stated as free and link takes you to Checkout at a price of 1 x £0.00.

Blind as a bat, sorry, I see that now!

Not exactly on prominent display though......

 

[Andy Adcock]

Paul,
it would incure Lord Dennings wrath, Master of the Rolls as he then was (I think?), if this had been an exclusion clause, it would get a slap with the 'red hand rule'

 

[rahopko]

And if you don't want to pay twenty quid?

It is definitely free. You register on his website first (free) and then click the sign up button for this webinar. Register for this event & then your “purchase” will go into his “shopping cart” & you check out from there. After checkout you will get an email with all of the zoom meeting info. If for some reason this is not working for you please let me know & I can get David to run interference for you.

 

[rahopko]

I get a page with a list of payment options £20, £50 or £150

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I think this is his website stuff. Go to this link directly: James Van Remsen Monday 19 February 7pm GMT

 

[rahopko]

I get a page with a list of payment options £20, £50 or £150

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New exclusive membership benefits constantly being added!

• BRONZE
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  year

• Bronze-winged Jacana​

  
• TUBW Tours
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• TUBW City Day Trips
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• TUBW Outdoor Courses
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Go directly to this link & then scroll down to the sign up link: James Van Remsen Monday 19 February 7pm GMT

 

[temmie]

Any one ever seen the film Supposing they gave a war and nobody came? It seems to me that everybody is enslaved to what ever "they" decide is happening as far as taxonomical changes go. I can understand why people do it if the geneticists discover that x is really y and never really belonged in z in the first place.

I often ask the question am I a bird watcher for the beauty of nature, a lister, or an ornithologist without the qualifications? The answer I get is primarily a bird watcher that enjoys listing and I do try to follow the science.

One thing I am not is a politician. I have to ask the question are the American Ornithological Society (AOS) in it for the science or the politics?
Looking at the conversation, I have to ask if there were ever real scientists on the naming committee, despite qualifications or were they only ever in it for the politics?

May be if we just ignore them they will lose their platform to preach their political corrections from. The danger is they will take this as a condonement of what they are doing. Which leaves us the choice to go with their politically induced science by backing it vocally or just ignoring it, or condemning what they are doing equally as vocally as it is scientifically baseless.

If they accept the fact it has nothing to do with science, we need to ask them if we really want or need a political wing to our science because it reeks of 1950s McCarthyism - Wikipedia. If the Donald gets reelected, what might he say to to that suggestion? Pretty sure he won't want this sort of thing getting is his way of doing politics his way. Boris Johnson refused to allow any science get in his way, when it came to the SARS-CoV-2 virus and his scientific leads, let alone politically correct science.

If the AOS follow the Popular writing | International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature (ICZN), they can't go changing the scientific names, as, and I quote "usually the first name published is valid and the other is disregarded."

Apart from the old obvious "ignore history at you peril" argument, are they claiming that Carl Linnaeus was in any way racist, involved in slavery or should be ignored for any other reason? Or are they saying because he was rich white and male

3 (short) remarks:

1. You argue this shouldn't be about politics. Eponyms from yesteryear were all about politics. You're argument is backfiring.
2. the ICZN quote is about Scientific names. I don't see the relevance as this whole topic is about English names.
3. you ask if there were ever eal scientists on the naming committee. AFAIK and just off the top of my head, Pamela Rasmussen is in the AOS name committee and she's quite the scientist / ornithologist. I couldn't name many with her achievements.

 

[qwerty5]

1. You argue this shouldn't be about politics. Eponyms from yesteryear were all about politics. You're argument is backfiring.

So what? If it was bad to name birds with eponyms because of politics, then it's bad to rename them because of politics.

 

[Paul Chapman]

3 (short) remarks:

1. You argue this shouldn't be about politics. Eponyms from yesteryear were all about politics. You're argument is backfiring.

The first point rather illustrates why I have lost steam and any interest in this topic. It is a sweeping generalisation. I am not sure what it is intended to mean but I know any attempt properly to categorise the nature of the eponyms and their diversity would be wasted effort so I attach a summary. No endorsement as to accuracy or content because it is from the 'opposing camp' but an illustration that could foster further study.

I have no faith in the process or the outcome because the process and communication to date has been poor. It would be daft to put faith into a group that has failed to date to engage broadly and positively with the birding community.

I hope that today's broadcast will seize upon in part positive steps that would actually broaden the interest in our minority hobby. It has a host suited to that.

All the best

Paul

 

[temmie]

The first point rather illustrates why I have lost steam and any interest in this topic. It is a sweeping generalisation. I am not sure what it is intended to mean but I know any attempt properly to categorise the nature of the eponyms and their diversity would be wasted effort so I attach a summary. No endorsement as to accuracy or content because it is from the 'opposing camp' but an illustration that could foster further study.

I have no faith in the process or the outcome because the process and communication to date has been poor. It would be daft to put faith into a group that has failed to date to engage broadly and positively with the birding community.

I hope that today's broadcast will seize upon in part positive steps that would actually broaden the interest in our minority hobby. It has a host suited to that.

All the best

Paul

You're not sure what it is intended to mean, but you still use my quote to fit your narrative.

If you want to know what I mean by politics, it is explained by e.g. Eponymous bird names feed ornithologists’ vanity, without enlightening the science

The .pdf you linked is giving counterarguments about e.g. racism, but as I didn't give any arguments in relation to racism, I don't understand what that has to do with what I said. Politics = the way eponyms were given 200 years back was largely based on who you knew / who your scientific buddies were. It wasn't only scientific merits that were at play. That's politics, and a very random way of giving names. Those who argue that today's name committee is politically inspired, should first of all have a good look at how birds got their eponym names. That was as much politics back in the days. So yes, anyone arguing that the change of names is politically inspired, uses an argument that backfires.

 

[temmie]

So what? If it was bad to name birds with eponyms because of politics, then it's bad to rename them because of politics.

Paraphrasing:
So what if those names change? If it was bad before, and even if a change isn't any better, it isn't any worse either.
I would understand arguments contra change if there is a reason to believe any non-eponymous name will be much worse, while there is as much, if not more reason to believe that new bird names will be much more relevant in terms of describing range / ID features / sound / habitat of the bird.

 

[Paul Chapman]

You're not sure what it is intended to mean, but you still use my quote to fit your narrative.

If you want to know what I mean by politics, it is explained by e.g. Eponymous bird names feed ornithologists’ vanity, without enlightening the science

The .pdf you linked is giving counterarguments about e.g. racism, but as I didn't give any arguments in relation to racism, I don't understand what that has to do with what I said. Politics = the way eponyms were given 200 years back was largely based on who you knew / who your scientific buddies were. It wasn't only scientific merits that were at play. That's politics, and a very random way of giving names. Those who argue that today's name committee is politically inspired, should first of all have a good look at how birds got their eponym names. That was as much politics back in the days. So yes, anyone arguing that the change of names is politically inspired, uses an argument that backfires.

Your quote of ALL historic eponyms is self-evidently a daft sweeping generalisation regardless of its meaning. That is my only narrative. Any serious response would concede that.

All the best

Paul

 

[qwerty5]

If it was bad before, and even if a change isn't any better, it isn't any worse either.

You're not wrong. But to change something, you have to have a valid case that logically and factually enumerates the problems with the status quo, and demonstrates that the change will provide benefits. The AOS has done neither

 

[rahopko]

Paraphrasing:
So what if those names change? If it was bad before, and even if a change isn't any better, it isn't any worse either.
I would understand arguments contra change if there is a reason to believe any non-eponymous name will be much worse, while there is as much, if not more reason to believe that new bird names will be much more relevant in terms of describing range / ID features / sound / habitat of the bird.

Here is an excellent perspective about this issue: Nature/Opinion: American Ornithological Society set to rename honorific birds