antshrike69
Well-known member
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Two people break 10,000 species, and on the same day? Can it be? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter pbjosh
- Start date
dantheman
Bah humbug
Maybe he doesn't go to feeders and he's seen all his hummingbirds at wild flowers etc ...The thing about hummingbirds like this, is that they are regular at feeders at many lodges over a wide range. Hard to imagine any neotropical birder missing Collared Inca. It's hardly a Rufous-webbed Brilliant (not that I'm bitter over that one....)
The other possibility is that it was left off in error and he added it at a later date ... of course that would infer a certain lack of organization perhaps which also wouldn't bode well ...
DMW
Well-known member
Seeing 10k species without any of them being at feeders would be impressive indeed! The thing about Collared Inca is that it's about the most obvious Hummingbird in existence and isn't just at feeders. I think your second explanation is much more plausible!Maybe he doesn't go to feeders and he's seen all his hummingbirds at wild flowers etc ...
The other possibility is that it was left off in error and he added it at a later date ... of course that would infer a certain lack of organization perhaps which also wouldn't bode well ...
antshrike69
Well-known member
Maybe, indeed. And I said earlier that I don't know the guy to make assumptions. But there is a lot bizarre here. I've seen well over 9000 species, but I would kill for a load of those he has on his list. As I'm sure almost every other world birder I know would.
I have however seen a lot of Collared Incas.
To put things in context. A lot of birders go to New Caledonia. A lot. New Caledonian Nightjar has been seen once. Ever. In 1939 when the type specimen was collected. And never since. Claiming a species like that is something that has to be scrutinised. Surely nobody would disagree with that? We aren't talking about claiming a UK Slender-billed Curlew for example. This is another whole level. I'd love to be proved wrong, especially as I will be in New Cal this autumn.
I have however seen a lot of Collared Incas.
To put things in context. A lot of birders go to New Caledonia. A lot. New Caledonian Nightjar has been seen once. Ever. In 1939 when the type specimen was collected. And never since. Claiming a species like that is something that has to be scrutinised. Surely nobody would disagree with that? We aren't talking about claiming a UK Slender-billed Curlew for example. This is another whole level. I'd love to be proved wrong, especially as I will be in New Cal this autumn.
Last edited:
......I'd join you in that killing spree too....Maybe, indeed. And I said earlier that I don't know the guy to make assumptions. But there is a lot bizarre here. I've seen well over 9000 species, but I would kill for a load of those he has on his list. As I'm sure almost every other world birder I know would.
I have however seen a lot of Collared Incas.
To put things in context. A lot of birders go to New Caledonia. A lot. New Caledonian Nightjar has been seen once. Ever. In 1939 when the type specimen was collected. And never since. Claiming a species like that is something that has to be scrutinised. Surely nobody would disagree with that? We aren't talking about claiming a UK Slender-billed Curlew for example. This is another whole level. I'd love to be proved wrong, especially as I will be in New Cal this autumn.
Jason Mann
New member
Hi all, this is Jason Mann. I've just seen these comments - thank you! I view life as a team sport and value constructive criticism. Clearly I made some errors when inputting my sightings into iGoTerra. New Caledonian Nightjar, for example. I'm not sure how that happened, but when I saw that Surfbirds was not stable anymore I worked quickly in the 2 months to pull together my updated IOC list (through version 14.1) for iGoTerra, which now seems like the best place for these lists. At the same time I worked to input my non-bird taxa (still a work in progress). All told I have uploaded around 20,000 species, many of which are not yet in the iGoTerra taxonomic database. It is a massive effort to collate all my notes after 37 years of birding almost everywhere, plus the non-bird taxa, aligning taxonomies with the platform, and so on. I view iGoTerra as a great tool, well overdue and I hope to contribute more going forward. I had used Surfbirds sparingly over the years, but as I mentioned to Peter I had not updated my totals in a while because listing is not my focus and the website seemed unstable recently.
For context, another challenge is that my internal database is a blend of IOC, Clements, the old HBW/BirdLife list, undescribed species (like Timor Nightjar), plus forms I anticipate have a good chance of being split in the future. I think Phoebe used something along these lines as well. Thus when I joined the platform recently it was not trivial to filter out my current (14.1) IOC list. Secondly, I focus on "target birds" and in some of my files I've X-ed out birds that I consider unfindable, such as New Caledonian Nightjar. I think the errors arose when I accidentally marked those X's as "seen" for the iGoTerra list. I caught a few of these errors before uploading but apparently I also missed some. My sincere apologies.
On the other hand, I can confirm that I have seen many of the rare birds mentioned, for example, Sulawesi Woodcock at Lore Lindu, New Ireland Dwarf Kingfisher near Rubio Plantation, and that arduous hike for Taliabu Bush Warbler last year. I joined a tour for that trip and I think I was the only person to see the bird that day.
As several people have noted, not only am I new to the iGoTerra platform, I'm also new to the public side of big listing. There are a few reasons for this: aside from family and work my main interest is the birds themselves and the broader ecology, tying to my science background (I have a PhD in biology). Also, I work in a very competitive business field, so for me getting outside, enjoying some solitude, and hiking to remote areas is a good balance to my busy family and work life. I've been known to run on lots of trails and have spent many nights in arduous field conditions, enjoying being unplugged from time to time. I'm based outside the US and have not joined many tour groups, for several reasons. When not in the field I'm focused on family and work and have not prioritized reporting, records committees, writing trip summaries and so on. I'm grateful for those who do invest time in these areas.
But there have been some key sightings over the years - one of my first rarities was finding a female Tufted Duck well inland in California more than 3 decades ago (potentially the first away from the California coast, and perhaps notable for a middle schooler on a bicycle), and while in Peru in 2010 with John Arnett and my wife I found what may be the first Unicolored Blackbird for the country (still the only eBird record for Peru 14 years later, I think). So while I have not prioritized the public, competitive aspects of birding, I've enjoyed making time to travel almost everywhere and see as much as possible (increasingly with non-bird taxa as I gain experience). I could make similar comments about photography - I'm beginning to take some photos now but for the vast majority of my birding career (which started many years before eBird) I've traveled light, more likely to read maps and scientific papers than stop for photos or compare lists with anyone else. The milestones are great but to me the real joy is in the journey, like hiking this morning in the Perijá mountains. To my surprise I was able to take a decent picture of Perija Thistletail, which I'll post to iGoTerra.
So that is some context. In terms of the 10,000 milestone, how remarkable is it that both Peter and I were so close after decades of birding. To me it was a real privilege to have such a close, neck-and-neck race at the end. My hope is that any associated publicity helps move birding forward, raising awareness for more people to enjoy and protect nature.
In summary, I'm comfortable with >99% of the list I've built on iGoTerra in the last couple of months but recognize that in haste there were a few oversights, which I take responsibility for. I'm on the road in Colombia but will correct these as soon as possible. Please feel free to send any others to drjasonmann (at) gmail. But with 10,021 on my iGoTerra bird list today I am certainly past (or very close to) 10,000, which I see as a major accomplishment at this point in my life.
But given that I made a few errors when assembling this list, I think it best to put my support behind Peter as the first birder to 10,000. I don't want there to be any question, and in my view he is extremely deserving! I'll make sure to communicate this directly to him later today.
I celebrate Peter and other world-class listers, and do not consider myself in competition with any of them. My main passion in this part of my life is getting outside, enjoying nature, exploring new areas, conservation, and empowering local communities to protect their local areas. I'm also excited about the publishing of more field guides beyond birds (and bird guides in non-English languages), and one book I wrote recently is with the publisher now. I hope that we can continue to pull together as a birding community to promote conservation, sustainability, and just the sheer fun of getting outside in nature.
So let's congratulate Peter for the accomplishment of a lifetime. And if anyone would like to join me in the field someday, or help raise awareness or funding for conservation, just let me know.
With best regards, Jason
For context, another challenge is that my internal database is a blend of IOC, Clements, the old HBW/BirdLife list, undescribed species (like Timor Nightjar), plus forms I anticipate have a good chance of being split in the future. I think Phoebe used something along these lines as well. Thus when I joined the platform recently it was not trivial to filter out my current (14.1) IOC list. Secondly, I focus on "target birds" and in some of my files I've X-ed out birds that I consider unfindable, such as New Caledonian Nightjar. I think the errors arose when I accidentally marked those X's as "seen" for the iGoTerra list. I caught a few of these errors before uploading but apparently I also missed some. My sincere apologies.
On the other hand, I can confirm that I have seen many of the rare birds mentioned, for example, Sulawesi Woodcock at Lore Lindu, New Ireland Dwarf Kingfisher near Rubio Plantation, and that arduous hike for Taliabu Bush Warbler last year. I joined a tour for that trip and I think I was the only person to see the bird that day.
As several people have noted, not only am I new to the iGoTerra platform, I'm also new to the public side of big listing. There are a few reasons for this: aside from family and work my main interest is the birds themselves and the broader ecology, tying to my science background (I have a PhD in biology). Also, I work in a very competitive business field, so for me getting outside, enjoying some solitude, and hiking to remote areas is a good balance to my busy family and work life. I've been known to run on lots of trails and have spent many nights in arduous field conditions, enjoying being unplugged from time to time. I'm based outside the US and have not joined many tour groups, for several reasons. When not in the field I'm focused on family and work and have not prioritized reporting, records committees, writing trip summaries and so on. I'm grateful for those who do invest time in these areas.
But there have been some key sightings over the years - one of my first rarities was finding a female Tufted Duck well inland in California more than 3 decades ago (potentially the first away from the California coast, and perhaps notable for a middle schooler on a bicycle), and while in Peru in 2010 with John Arnett and my wife I found what may be the first Unicolored Blackbird for the country (still the only eBird record for Peru 14 years later, I think). So while I have not prioritized the public, competitive aspects of birding, I've enjoyed making time to travel almost everywhere and see as much as possible (increasingly with non-bird taxa as I gain experience). I could make similar comments about photography - I'm beginning to take some photos now but for the vast majority of my birding career (which started many years before eBird) I've traveled light, more likely to read maps and scientific papers than stop for photos or compare lists with anyone else. The milestones are great but to me the real joy is in the journey, like hiking this morning in the Perijá mountains. To my surprise I was able to take a decent picture of Perija Thistletail, which I'll post to iGoTerra.
So that is some context. In terms of the 10,000 milestone, how remarkable is it that both Peter and I were so close after decades of birding. To me it was a real privilege to have such a close, neck-and-neck race at the end. My hope is that any associated publicity helps move birding forward, raising awareness for more people to enjoy and protect nature.
In summary, I'm comfortable with >99% of the list I've built on iGoTerra in the last couple of months but recognize that in haste there were a few oversights, which I take responsibility for. I'm on the road in Colombia but will correct these as soon as possible. Please feel free to send any others to drjasonmann (at) gmail. But with 10,021 on my iGoTerra bird list today I am certainly past (or very close to) 10,000, which I see as a major accomplishment at this point in my life.
But given that I made a few errors when assembling this list, I think it best to put my support behind Peter as the first birder to 10,000. I don't want there to be any question, and in my view he is extremely deserving! I'll make sure to communicate this directly to him later today.
I celebrate Peter and other world-class listers, and do not consider myself in competition with any of them. My main passion in this part of my life is getting outside, enjoying nature, exploring new areas, conservation, and empowering local communities to protect their local areas. I'm also excited about the publishing of more field guides beyond birds (and bird guides in non-English languages), and one book I wrote recently is with the publisher now. I hope that we can continue to pull together as a birding community to promote conservation, sustainability, and just the sheer fun of getting outside in nature.
So let's congratulate Peter for the accomplishment of a lifetime. And if anyone would like to join me in the field someday, or help raise awareness or funding for conservation, just let me know.
With best regards, Jason
DMW
Well-known member
Thanks for posting here Jason, and welcome. I hope you see us as informed skeptics rather than our critical comments being just motivated by pulling other birders down.
I think we'd all be interested to hear your comments on the more difficult species mentioned here on your list!
I think we'd all be interested to hear your comments on the more difficult species mentioned here on your list!
Bismarck Honeyeater
Barely known member
I’m reminded of a county that I used to live in. Some years ago a little known ‘birder’ suddenly posted that he had seen a huge number of birds in the year, and was clearly seen to be attempting the county yearlist record.
The strange thing was that no one gets a huge list without all the local birders knowing that the record is being challenged, and the individual being seen at all the local twitches. This wasn’t the case.
The large total was supposedly achieved by the autumn, so everyone now keenly watched his progress. Birds (very difficult birds to connect with) were added, one after the other, and then they started to be claimed with photographic evidence. An unfeasible number of single-observer flyover rarities were claimed - it was amazing!
Too amazing! Analysis of the photographic EXIF data, and comparisons of the photographs with others soon revealed that it was a huge scam.
All sorts of excuses, mistaken dates, wrong photos uploaded, and other lame excuses were proffered. But the game was up and the ‘birder’ shuffled of the birding scene.
If you are seriously going for a big record, in any sphere, the way to do it is openly - if you want to be taken seriously.
In conclusion, huge congratulations to Peter, whose progress I have been following for decades. 👍🏼
The strange thing was that no one gets a huge list without all the local birders knowing that the record is being challenged, and the individual being seen at all the local twitches. This wasn’t the case.
The large total was supposedly achieved by the autumn, so everyone now keenly watched his progress. Birds (very difficult birds to connect with) were added, one after the other, and then they started to be claimed with photographic evidence. An unfeasible number of single-observer flyover rarities were claimed - it was amazing!
Too amazing! Analysis of the photographic EXIF data, and comparisons of the photographs with others soon revealed that it was a huge scam.
All sorts of excuses, mistaken dates, wrong photos uploaded, and other lame excuses were proffered. But the game was up and the ‘birder’ shuffled of the birding scene.
If you are seriously going for a big record, in any sphere, the way to do it is openly - if you want to be taken seriously.
In conclusion, huge congratulations to Peter, whose progress I have been following for decades. 👍🏼
Peter kaestners zapata rail sighting is down as 2000
Bismarck Honeyeater
Barely known member
The full read is above, but to save time I’ve highlighted the salient points.
Peter Kaestner
Member
I was shocked to see the Zapata Rail on my IOC list. When I learned some years ago that the call that was attributed to the rail was not in fact the rail, I took it off my list. It is no longer on my eBird list, but I neglected to remove it from my iGoTerra list. With 10,000 birds and hundreds of thousands of records, there is constant maintenance. Some birds that I forgot go on and ones that are now now good (another example is White-winged Flufftail) come off. This one just slipped through the cracks.
BRAMBLEFINCH
New member
Hi Jason
I think you should be commended for starting to address the many questions your claims have provoked. It would have been easier to hide away.
I’m sure you will get around to the various Tepui endemics & other contentious records, but as an Igoterra subscriber myself, my questions are about the 122 countries where you have only recorded one species. On closer investigation, all 122 appear to be your first ever observations of those species, in other words lifers for you. I can see why that might be an attractive way of inputting a lot of data, recording only the important birds for your list rather than endless Cattle egrets etc.
I’ve copied just six countries where only one species is reported and in each case it was a lifer for you at the time:
Belgium: European goldfinch
Germany: Carrion crow
Luxembourg: Eurasian skylark
Romania: Barn swallow
Albania: Great crested grebe
Croatia: Common starling
North Korea: Taiga bean goose
I could go on, there are 122 examples in your own published data. How is it possible for the World’s Top Birder, or any birder, to visit the six European countries listed and somehow miss the other five species whilst there?
Out of curiosity, when did you go to North Korea & what was the birding like there?
I think you should be commended for starting to address the many questions your claims have provoked. It would have been easier to hide away.
I’m sure you will get around to the various Tepui endemics & other contentious records, but as an Igoterra subscriber myself, my questions are about the 122 countries where you have only recorded one species. On closer investigation, all 122 appear to be your first ever observations of those species, in other words lifers for you. I can see why that might be an attractive way of inputting a lot of data, recording only the important birds for your list rather than endless Cattle egrets etc.
I’ve copied just six countries where only one species is reported and in each case it was a lifer for you at the time:
Belgium: European goldfinch
Germany: Carrion crow
Luxembourg: Eurasian skylark
Romania: Barn swallow
Albania: Great crested grebe
Croatia: Common starling
North Korea: Taiga bean goose
I could go on, there are 122 examples in your own published data. How is it possible for the World’s Top Birder, or any birder, to visit the six European countries listed and somehow miss the other five species whilst there?
Out of curiosity, when did you go to North Korea & what was the birding like there?
antshrike69
Well-known member
Thanks for the clarification Jason. I totally get that maintaining a list of >9000 is a constant battle - especially if you also look for non-avian taxa too (as I do as well - currently working through 100s of Peruvian moths). Listing is built on trust, if you are sharing numbers, and like I said before, any list in the high 1000s is a massive achievement. I would genuinely love to hear more about some of the taxa you have seen - no judgement. But the off-piste tepui endemics especially (birds I would like to get to see myself one day) and species like Manipur BQ and Buff-breasted BQ.
MiddleRiver
Well-known member
Just out of curiosity (I don’t intend to question anyone’s list): are such high stakes bird lists made by including heard-only or is visual ID always expected?
And if vocalization alone is ‘counted’ how do birders confirm ID if poorly documented bird?
And if vocalization alone is ‘counted’ how do birders confirm ID if poorly documented bird?
antshrike69
Well-known member
Everyone has their own rules. Some count heard only, some don't. Some keep separate lists of the two. And as for your second question, pretty much every species' calls are known. Heard only records should be subject to the same confirmation as seen records (in some cases, species can only be told apart by voice anyway, with no visual differences)
craigevenhouse
New member
Dodo! That made me laugh!! Good one.
eci datriana
Member
You did great, Jason! Anyway, congrats too for your list. Awesome journey ✨
I had client like you, a biology background, focusing on the birds he wanted to see - not the competition. He`s made his own list from every trip he had since long time before ebird. In my opinion it is good. Enjoying the passion itself.
But still yeah, every birder in the list are great too! Just different way to catch the joy of birding 🤍 Congrats Peter for 10K!!! 👍🏼
Adding an East Asian perspective... I've been birding in China for over 12 years, also serving as an eBird regional reviewer for China. I'm really curious where and when Dr. Mann ticked the birds below:
Rufous-headed Robin
Blackthroat
Hainan Peacock-pheasant
Kozlov's Accentor
Band-bellied Crake
Jankowski's Bunting (aka Rufous-backed Bunting)
Also there was ONLY ONE species reported by Dr. Mann on iGT for Bhutan (and as FO), which was the Black Drongo. I find this utterly astonishing, since currently there're 850,987 observations on eBird for this bird (https://ebird.org/species/bladro1/).
Rufous-headed Robin
Blackthroat
Hainan Peacock-pheasant
Kozlov's Accentor
Band-bellied Crake
Jankowski's Bunting (aka Rufous-backed Bunting)
Also there was ONLY ONE species reported by Dr. Mann on iGT for Bhutan (and as FO), which was the Black Drongo. I find this utterly astonishing, since currently there're 850,987 observations on eBird for this bird (https://ebird.org/species/bladro1/).
Last edited:
Jason Bugay Reyes
Well-known member
Just wondering if it is counted if heard only birds we have never seen before?
Similar threads
